Point or Front Sight - let's talk

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Harry Humphries

Staff Alumnus
OK my turn to start one. There has been an ongoing battle between the point shooters (Col. Rex Aplegate) and front sighters ( Col. Jeff Cooper ) for many years. I, admittedly as a result of cross training with our SAS brethren in my SEAL years, was a point shooter until I was fortunate enough to go through the Gun Sight program which changed me back to the front sight. So I am able to understand both sides. Let's hear your comments and information relating to these two philosophies. I need to warn you though that the worst kind of a fanatic is the convert.
 

Spectre

Staff Alumnus
I believe in "point" or, more properly, "punch" shooting at contact distance. Otherwise, there's a reason God made sights.
 

Rob Pincus

New member
I use the point method 90% of the time. I also tend to fire hundreds of rounds a week, which helps keep this skill up.
I also spend about 90% of my practice within 10 yards of the targets.

Only in what I consider extreme circumstances of range (over 8-10 yards) or environment (crowd, hostage, hunting, etc...) do I really ever concentrate on the sights. Two of my favorite practice pistols don't even have sights.

Concentrating on the front sight takes away forma situational awareness to my mind. When you have a gun out in a tactical situation we already know that "tunnel vision" is likely to set in, I train to avoid that, by conciously scanning between shots. I feel like focusing on the front sight will only increase my chances of missing something.

Of course, I've never been in a firefight, nor shot anyone. (but I've talked to quite a few who have...
wink.gif
)
 

Kodiac

New member
I always start my shooting sessions working from what I call the interview position. Which is a modified weaver stance, with weapon holstered securely and hands up at chest level, like you were filling out a field interview card or writting a ticket or eating a doughnut and holding a cup of java.
This puts you into a modified weaver shooting position when the wistle blows. When it is time to move both arms extend out with the weapon and your in a "point" position which I have also heard called "isreali" position, using the sights as much as you can - but that depends on M.E.T.T.
I think you've got to be able to shoot from all positions and you've got to be able to MOVE and get some cover - citizens, military, and Law Enforcement. No man is an Island - No man is an ABRAHMS either!
 

motorep

New member
I hesitated to jump in here, but, I guess what you have confidence in, and the way you train/practice is what works for you. In my experience, unless you are at contact distance, deliberate aimed fire is faster and more accurate than point shooting. I also fire hundreds of rounds a week - at least thats my plan - and the targets and timer show the same results month after month, year after year. I agree with the notion of practicing from different positions- backing up, running away- which is my first choice, etc. My .02 worth.
 

Don R

New member
Although I have "played" with point-shooting in various forms, 98% of my shooting is done with a flash sight picture. Surprise Surprise!

Anyway, I will sometimes take the Old Benelli into what Ayoob calls a "High-Tuck" and let a double tap loose in close quarters, or with a handgun, palm smack the face of a standing target with my off hand and let it have 2 where it counts without using the sights of course. That is about it.

I have played around with Cirillo's "Geometric Point" (everyone comes up with these neat names) and found that it works, I just trust my front sight as a Brother.
 
For those of us who believe in the Modern Technique of the Pistol, or otherwise follow the teachings of Jeff Cooper, front sight rules.

Point shooters suggest that point is quicker. However, Cooper reminds us that sights are used only to "confirm" our target, not to acquire it. If the presentation is practiced regulary and uniformly, the target is lined up and the front sight acquired as we push the weapon forward in the final stage of presentation.

I do not see how "front sight, press" is slower, under these conditions. I do, however, see how it might avoid a "fast miss" when the lead is flying and the adrenalin is pumping.

Even at the 3 yard line, where point might seem appropriate, our need to stop the threat dictates preparation for the failure drill. I find it tough to consistently make the head shot, using the point method, from a distance of 9 feet.
Rich Lucibella
 

David

New member
Point shooting for up close and personal,
then the gun is raised higher and higher the
farther away the target until up to sight only.
Just as an academic observation, given equal
skill level, equipment, etc., how can a sight only person actually deliver a shot as quickly as someone who is holding at gut
level or mid-chest and shoots center of mass.
I am not a competition shooter guru, but,
as noted by the range officer, when I shoot
steel plates against another shooter and the
pressure is REALLY ON, I shoot all the 3 and
7 yards using a high position point shooting.
Just for me, it works very, very well.
I wasn't really aware I was doing this until
people told me. Funny part is, I used to tell
people I only used sights.
Go figure.....
 

Don R

New member
I think learning how to shoot in close quarters without the aid of sights is a very important skill to acquire. When I say, "Close Quarters," I truly mean it.

I think the Cooper/Gunsite Approach is fine, but the Weaver never really worked for me as much as the Isoceles, in a very aggressive manner, ala Ayoob. I shoot from the Weaver too, as I believe it is an important technique...I just like "The Turret" it seems to work better for me personally...
 
David-
If your "front sight" firing is slower than your point shooting (not *hip* shooting or retention shooting), it may be because you're "bowling ball" the presentation. If you're using the Cooper technique, the weapon is being thrust out, like a punch, at your target. The front sight is not picked up *after* assuming the firing position, but during the presentation.
Rich
 

Rob Pincus

New member
I shoot in what I guess would be called a modified weaver, with my upper body no more than 10 degrees from perpendicular to the target, but my hips about 60-70 degrees canted to the right. It works for me. In a fighting stance for staff, knife, hands, whatever, my upper comes more in line with my lower body.
My presentation is an up and out technique with my off hand meeting up with the gun hand about 2/3rds of the way to full extension of my right arm. This allows for my off hadn to not be a practiced part of the immediate presentation, in case it is busy when that crucial first shot is needed.
I find this works great for point shooting, and allows me to focus on the sight if I need to. I am not looking for the sight during the presentation though, as I believe the Cooperites do.

Kod-
If you havne't already done it or arn't doing it, start your shooting WITH the donut, ticket book, or whatever in your hands. It changes things dramaticaly. I've seen having to drop something add a full second to some very capable shooter's presentation times. I practice throughing the clibboard, whatever at the target as I start the presentation. (After the first "doh!" I learned to use something besides my real clibboard (Hello, Gall's? I need another ticket book please..)).

Our core group has a time during most of our sessions when one person is "rangemaster" and the other guy or two is Hot and the targets are up. Will will have different designations for each silhouete (usually colors). While the shooter(s) is actiing out different scenarios the rangemaster will call out "BLUE,RED..UP!" or whatever and we react to and engage the designated target(s). Variations abound, including haveing one person designated as a bystander or protection client. The Rangemaster can call out "body armour!" during the engagement, requiring the appropriate reaction, etc. All non-hot targets are considered innocent bystanders. We use Tactical Ted Targets and Various stands and pieces of old furniture to create a three dimensional target area.
A good entry level deal, once you've covered drawing and firing, moving and firing, and st up an appropriate range, is to have the shooter walk in a figure 8 about 5-10 feet from the target. Make sure that the extreme left point of the 8 doesn't require a dangerously oblique shot on the right hand target and vice-versa. Then, as the shooter walks, the Rangemaster calls out as above. After a few engagements, you will have hit on a variety of presentations.
I think moving and shooting is one of the MOST overlooked aspets of training and practice.
This is pretty advanced back yard gun work, but once you get to a certain level, I think training in the most realistic way possible is very important.
(Standard Disclaimer: please don't shot yourself or someone else or your clipboard if you decdide to try this stuff out...)
 

Kodiac

New member
Rob... You make me laugh...

At "danger close" I favor the "punch draw" and then a fast step back for follow on shots... usually 12 of them.

No, I have never tried shooting with pastry and cup in hand - but to pass the driving course in my academy we had to DRIVE with our hands full... Sugery baked snack, boiling hot drink, and talk on the radio all at the same time. With out spilling, messing up your uniform, or mistakes on the radio - you could take out a few cones if you needed to
biggrin.gif

I miss that academy...
 

Blues

New member
I tend to favor use of sights, and when I time myself against other agents at qualifications, I still usually am the first to get all my shots off, even when they are "point shooting" as instructed by the range officer.

Then again, I would not say I never use point shooting. Just as a general rule I prefer the use of the sights.

Blues
 

Rodmann

New member
I guess I fall in the "front sighter" category. I've been fortunate in that I've been through the Gunsite program as well. I'm convinced that knowing where my front sight is, and shooting from a stable shooting position will allow me to get the hits.
-R
 

Rosco Benson

New member
Point-shooting is best reserved for bad-breath distances...just outside of arms length and closer. I use the sights for the majority of my shooting...even the hyper-fast stuff where one tries really hard to pick up that front sight and it SEEMS that one does, perhaps at a subconscious level. The mantra is and must always be "shoot as quickly as you CAN and as carefully as you MUST".

On a nice flat range, using a target directly to my front, I can get good hits by point-shooting out to about 7 yards. Anyone can with a little practice. However, if anyone has any doubts about the pitfalls of point-shooting, try some drills where the targets are to either side or on a higher of
lower level than that of the shooter. If still unconvinced, try point-shooting while utilizing cover. Also, try to arrange things so the shooter cannot see hit bullet strikes and adjust accordingly (try this with a grassy backstop and with old shirts draped over the targets). As frustration sets in (and it will) try the same drills using the modern technique. The sureness and rapidity of using the sights will be well illustrated. Oh yes...be sure to TIME the exercises. What "feels" fastest often isn't.

I have two E-tickets from Orange Gunsite. API250 in 1980 and API499 in 1982. I am a charter member of Rick Miller's Paladin Program and helped formulated the system (my help being much like that of a lab animal). I mention this only to establish that I didn't just fall off the turnip truck (in truth, I DID fall off the turnip truck...but it wasn't just yesterday). I'll even note that I CAN point-shoot pretty well (but I don't delude myself that it's other than a "stunt"). The superiority of the modern technique shouldn't be subject to debate. Just look at what the winners use in free-style, practical competiton.

Does anyone ever wonder why the point-shooting advocates don't show up at these events and clean the clocks of us slow, old "sight-users"? I don't.

Rosco
 

Rob Pincus

New member
Rosco, I have no doubt of your abilities or experience, but those are some bold overriding statements. Personally, I am very comfortable in every situation you mentioned using a point shooting technique. I have a "wall" of railroad ties that we use to hang our silhouettes on, it is nearly impossible to use our hits to adjust fire with the dark backgroud, and, as I said we use Tactical Teds (soon to be reactive Teds) with all sorts of clothing, on a regular basis.

I'm also not 100% convinced that many of the popular competitions are a great comparison to combat. I don't have to worry about what's beyond my target, nor what may be coming out of vehicles or from my side during competition. I also won't have to move over and around obstacles in a non-safety-oriented area during competition. I don't like the idea of tunneling in on my front site. While it may increase my shooting accuracy by a small percentage, I feel the liability it introduces in situational awareness could be infinitely more detrimental than a 1-2 inch deviation from center mass at 5 yards.
 

Hilton

New member
I subscribe to the philosophy set forth best by Brian Enos in Practical Shooting:Beyond Fundamentals. Without reproducing that chapter in its entirety, the basic concept is to use varying levels of focus depending on range and difficulty of target engagement. At the closest ranges (3 yds or less), mount the weapon and confirm body index, look at the target. If your body index is on, then the hit will occur. As distance and difficulty level increase, you take more time to confirm body index, get sight picture/alignment, and confirm sights before and during trigger press. If shooting at a long range/high difficulty target, you'd confirm sight picture all the way through the trigger press. The amount of sight attention will vary depending on focus level. When acquiring targets, I look at them first, then shift to the necessary sight focus.
 

lewis

New member
I have always trained to find the front sight. I find at close range, during qualifications, the range officer may say to point shoot, but I am so used to going for the front sight that I just do it naturally. To try to point shoot or to switch stance slows me way down. They can't hardly say your wrong if you use your sight, and your done shooting before everybody else, and all your hits are center mass.
By the way, I don't make it to the range every week, but I do go at least once a month religiously and shoot 100-200 rounds. You would be amazed how few gun toting people, police or otherwise actually do even this much. IMHO civilians are actually better about getting to the range regularly than most cops. (no slam on the boys in blue, I am one.)
Lewis
 

Rosco Benson

New member
At speed, I think I often use a middle-distance focus...wherein my focus is actually somewhere BETWEEN the front sight and the target. Neither the front sight nor the target is in crisp focus, but both can be seen reasonably clearly. As the target becomes more distant or smaller, then a more intense front sight focus is required.

Rob; If you're happy with the results you're getting with point-shooting and have objectively established that you are faster and more certain of hitting in that mode, then don't change a thing. As to the notion of practical competition techniques being applicable to combat; well, to place well in such a contest, one must get his hits, QUICKLY, and avoid hitting "no-shoots" and dropping shots. It would seem that the fundamental desired results are pretty much the same. The results of not attaining these results in competition is a poor finish. The consequences are much more dire in combat.

I can't get too concerned about the notion that focusing on one's front sight will cause one to get "tunnel vision". One is only focused on the sight while firing the shot(s) and while following through. Immediately afterward, one should be assessing the effectiveness of one's initial response and scanning the scene for additional threats. As Hilton pointed out, our focus is first on our targets (how else could we know they need shooting?), then on our sights while shooting (with the "intensity" of the focus varying with the need for precision), and then...finally...our focus returning to our target and the general area of concern (with head movement to help break any tendency toward tunnel vision).

Rosco
 

Rob Pincus

New member
All good points, Rosco.

One other thing occured to me this evening. Several of us have several different firearms that we carry under different circumstances. I take this stuff more serisouly than the average guy, and yet only 5 of my handguns suitable for carrying have night sights. We know that most shootings happen under low light circumstances. Certainly, none of my "ultra-compacts" (tomcat, Jetfire, NAA Mini, Pro-Tec 25, etc.) have night sights.
What happens to the person who is looking for the sight that he can't see? Is there a vital fraction of a second lost?

(unfortunately, I am heading out of town tomorrow, so I may have to bow out of this discussion for at least a few days....)
 
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