Pistol Ready Positions: Pros and Cons

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Snyper

New member
And zero experience with position SUL from which to form an informed opinion.

How much "experience" do you need to see where the muzzle is pointed?
It's just the latest fad, and no better than other time tested positions
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-tactical-training/61344-position-sul.html
Here's what the guy who invented it had to say:

Mr. Alan Brosnan describes this position this way: Position SUL, is not a classic "gun ready" position, but rather a "gun safety" position.

3. The muzzle of the weapon is pointed directly at the ground between the shooter’s feet. The slide/barrel of the handgun is held against the back of the knuckles of the support hand.

Care must be taken to ensure that the muzzle does not point outward to the front or to the side of the shooter.

The muzzle MUST be straight down.

LOL
It seems the guy who invented it doesn't do it "correctly" according to the "experienced" shooters here:

The muzzle is canted far enough forward to clear your legs and feet.

For the vast majority of people it has no practical advantage
 

Striker1

New member
I think some times people get too "locked in" on a ready/carry position and view it as static...I will only hold this way or that when in reality you will probably flow between two or more depending on actual needs of the situation in that moment in time. For instance, you might go from neutral or compressed ready to sul if you need to turn with the weapon and face a different direction then move back to neutral or compressed ready.

It is really hard to make an educated judgement until you get some experience in these areas. They all have their uses.
 

PawPaw

New member
For the vast majority of people it has no practical advantage

Granted. For the vast majority of people, other methods may work better, but it wasn't designed for the vast majority of people. The vast majority of people would be better served by simply holstering the weapon.

Don't over-think this thing. Learn from the instructors and apply the lessons to the real world. I've used SUL in the real world, and for limited applications it's a relatively safe way to move through a crowd of people. (There's that word "relatively" again.)
 

tipoc

New member
I like Sul, because it is easy to stack people closely together with relative safety. I say "relative safety" because if something goes wrong in the stack, you're going to shoot your buddy in the lower extremities rather than between the shoulder blades, so Sul isn't a panacea for poor gun-handling, it's just one way that a trainer tried to find a less-dangerous way of getting out of vehicles.

And being stacked in narrow hallways. It is useful for this. It can also be useful for moving quickly through a crowd. It is a position that one transfers into and out of as it is a clumsy one to be in for any length of time. It has been overly formalized for some instruction and training purposes as methods often are. You can see this in the pics above. In practice the thumbs do not need to touch each other and a firm grasp should be kept on the firearm, etc.

It's essence is that the muzzle is pointed at the ground, the gun held close to the body and retained there, and it's intended for use while moving or in a crowded place. It is a strong weapons retention hold. The gun can be quickly elevated for a close to the body shot or to extension, or to a less awkward position. It is useful in some situations IMHO.

tipoc
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
PawPaw said:
...I've used SUL in the real world, and for limited applications it's a relatively safe way to move through a crowd of people.
Which is its purpose -- and purpose it serves very well if one is trained in it, trains with it and does it properly.

It is was never intended to be a general use ready position. It was intended to be, and is, a specialized tool for a particular task.
 

Angelo Demuerte

New member
Sul works for many situations. I have used it in real world application. I, however, tend to modify the position for retention purposes by moving the hand closest to the torso in front of the firearm.
 

RX-79G

Moderator
Without getting too far into it, Sul looks like you have the least grip on the weapon. The with the thumb up and the off hand under the slide, a firm bump to the shooting hand will rotate the gun in that hand. It does not seem like a ready position from that standpoint.

Does anyone teach semi-holstered as either a ready or safety position?
 

RX-79G

Moderator
Partially drawn. The pistol in full control of the shooting hand, but the muzzle contained by the holster. Faster than a full draw, but muzzle direction still under control of the holster. It puts two contact points on the gun but frees the off hand.

Obviously, this wouldn't work with certain holsters, but a duty holster or FBI style would work.
 

fastbolt

New member
Okay, I'm not able to give any sort of definitive answer for armed private citizens, as I'm mostly a LE firearms instructor and am oriented to working with cops. I've not heard of anyone teaching cops to perform "partial draws" as a "ready" technique.

Holstering & drawing are a couple of actions that can provide for some increased risk. Hesitating in the middle of either? Maybe not so good of an idea.

Why? Because we're handling the gun (it's not resting in the holster). We work to develop skills to allow us to maximize safety and proficiency in those high-risk actions.

Drawing ... You're grasping the weapon and preparing to not only safely clear the holster, but also any cover garments, while maintaining a proper grip and trigger discipline/safety, as well as locating/positioning your other hand to be clear of the muzzle as the weapon is presented (whether it's going to be used for support or some other, separate action) ... as well as making whatever body positioning or balance adjustments, or movement ... as may be necessary. Ever wonder why some folks are startled to find themselves fumbling their draw? Sometimes just canting the gun the wrong way, leaning off balance, or missing your "timing" during the release of a retention device and the lifting the gun, can really throw people off.

Holstering ... Not only does the muzzle have to be located for safe insertion (not sweeping the user, or anyone else), but depending on the holster it's possible for either a retention strap, clothing (edge of jacket, shirt or drawstring) or an index finger to become trapped against the holster mouth and funneled within the trigger guard.

If you haven't seen someone experience (or experienced for yourself) getting excited and SHOVING their weapon past the front of the holster while attempting to holster, missing the holster, extending their arm & weapon downward into the air ... or, shoving it HARD into a holster, trapping their finger against the edge of the holster, shoving their finger into the trigger guard and against the trigger ... or, catching some part of their clothing inside the holster as the gun is being holstered ... or just fumbling the attempt ... you haven't experienced that sort of interesting adrenalin dump.

So ... These drawing & holstering actions are often hard enough for many folks to properly, safely & smoothly perform them under even minimal range stress conditions (if you're on a range that allows it, or are attending a class).

Creating a situation where you're "interrupting" those (hopefully) practiced & ingrained movements, hesitating partway through either movement ... and probably while under real stress ... may create an unexpected opportunity for confusion & fumbling.

Ever hit the wrong pedal in your car, hitting the gas instead of the brakes, or the brakes instead of the gas (or, add a clutch and see some real foot action gymnastics stabbing for 1 or 2 of 3 different pedals), and that's involving actions you probably perform/practice everyday, for some years, each time you drive the car.

How about ever hesitating in applying one of them, stopping halfway and then continuing, and finding yourself doing the opposite of what you intended? You're deviating from your normal skills application, trying to over-ride those normal actions, and sometimes a moment's confusion may make you shove your foot DOWN instead of LIFTING it (or vice versa). Hand & finger confusion, even without any jerks or "yips", can be a very unwelcome thing when we're handling guns.

Introducing an extra "step" may add to some confusion in an already unexpected, uncertain, stressful and rapidly evolving situation. That's the time when you want to keep things simple, and be able to rely on well-practiced physical movements, performed smoothly without having to stop and consciously think through each and every step of the movement. It can be even harder when your attention is distracted by a realistically perceived threat.

Also, hesitating in the drawstroke will probably require you to "re-engage" and "perform" the draw a second time, and it's not going to feel like what you normally do (when performing a complete drawstroke with the fully-holstered weapon). It might just put you behind the curve needed for the situation, too.

Now, most cops have policies, procedures and general orders regarding the drawing and presentation of their weapons in public (whether on or off-duty). I can think of some agencies that require a special report if their cops so much as grasp the butt of their holstered weapons during a public contact.

Private citizens? Well, some careful attention to your jurisdiction's use-of-force, displaying & brandishing laws might be prudent.

There's always the possibility of a chance for there to be some witness you didn't see, and we live in an age where camera phones are EVERYWHERE (except perhaps when we need them to be there, of course ;) ).

Just some thoughts. I apologize for the wordiness. I've just not heard someone ask about a "semi-holstered/ready" position. :D
 

RX-79G

Moderator
I wasn't really thinking of a hesitated draw as much as using the open top of the holster as a spot to put the muzzle. The gun is in full control of the hand - the holster just serves as an index and secondary means of controlling the movement of the handgun.

Since holstering/reholstering is a trained movement, the idea is to use that muscle memory as the basis for the position rather than teach a new and unnatural position, like Sul.
 

fastbolt

New member
I wasn't really thinking of a hesitated draw as much as using the open top of the holster as a spot to put the muzzle. The gun is in full control of the hand - the holster just serves as an index and secondary means of controlling the movement of the handgun.

Since holstering/reholstering is a trained movement, the idea is to use that muscle memory as the basis for the position rather than teach a new and unnatural position, like Sul.

Why draw if you're not going to present it?

Why not holster it if you're looking for a "safe" position to "index" it if you're not ready to present it?

You're creating a new "position" and set of circumstances in which you're handling the weapon. Is it necessary?

FWIW, I don't have any perceived or actual need for SUL, either.
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
RX-79G said:
...Does anyone teach semi-holstered as either a ready or safety position?
Not in my experience -- including 300+ hours of handgun training.

I can't imagine what worthwhile purpose it might serve. Among other things, assuming a suitable type holster is being used, have the gun in your hand and partially in the holster really offers no meaningful advantage over having the gun holstered with your hand on the gun in a full firing grip ready to draw.

And with the gun holstered with your hand on the gun in a full firing grip ready to draw, if you need to quickly use that hand for something else you can just remove it from the gun with the gun then remaining securely seated in the holster.
 

Angelo Demuerte

New member
Drawing a pistol only halfway out of a holster telegraphs what your next plan of action is most likely going to be and can leave you at a disadvantage. While your hand is still on the pistol and close to your body, the pistol is not yet clear of the holster. If you are in close quarters and the threat is able to close the distance quickly, physical contact may begin before your pistol is clear of the holster.

Drawing a pistol only halfway out of a holster also interrupts the draw, and can increase the chance of a snag during the completion of the draw. A smooth draw is executed in one motion from the holster.
 

RX-79G

Moderator
Keep in mind that my question was because of the bizarre Sul position.

It doesn't sound like anyone likes or uses Sul, so my question is academic.
 
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AK103K

New member
I was thinking it was a way to accomplish the same thing without pointing a gun at your nuts and sacrificing your grip on it.
SUL does neither of those things, if you do it properly.

It doesn't sound like anyone likes or uses Sul, so my question is academic.
I find I use it, or a variation of it, more than anything else.
 

Sharkbite

New member
As i posted on another thread. The ability to flow between different readies as the situation demands is the mark of a professional

Walking up to a car on a traffic stop, stacking on a door with a team, 2 man entry and clears OR the CCW holder that gets frightened at an ATM, or the unexpected knock on the frontdoor at night. Examples go on...

Different readies each and every one. The person that has trained enough can comfortably transition their hangun thru any/all of the readies as needed

Bottom line.... No friendlies get covered EVER!!!!! and any potential badguy that does get covered, has that happen intentionally
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
RX-79G said:
...It doesn't sound like anyone likes or uses Sul, so my question is academic.
I like SUL and use it for appropriate applications.

I don't like your "partial draw" idea and wouldn't consider using it. I can think of no purpose for which it would be well suited.
 
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