Pistol caliber carbine vs 12 gauge ?

[Crosshair]

I think youre deceiving yourself if you think someone wearing a vest is just going to stop what they are doing and run away when you shoot them.

A criminal has nothing to gain by getting into a gunfight with a homeowner. If anything it's to buy them for time to get out. If I was a cop out on patrol that would be a very valid concern though.

While there is some blunt force trauma, its generally not as bad as youre making out, and usually will not stop the person being shot, from making instant and effective return fire on you.

I never said it was. I was just pointing out that they are going to feel something though. Besides, anything short of a direct hit to the brainstem is going to result in someone who is going to be able to deliver return fire in some form, the 86 shootout showed that definitively.

I think I've seen Rick Davis's video in the past at some point. The name does ring a bell. It indeed is a good video if it's the one I'm thinking of.

If they are coming in looking for a fight they'll be wearing hard armor anyway which will stop a .223.

Worrying about a BG wearing kevlar now is not that high of a priority unless you're worried about cops knocking down your door. I would place far higher considerations on having a gun that you can accurately fire under less than ideal conditions and not have the gun totally blind and deafen you.

I've love to say that I'm some hardbutt who can wake from a dead sleep and 5 seconds later be emptying my 12 gauge into a squad of BGs, but one needs to be realistic of ones own abilities.. I know that the flash from my .223 blinds me at night and I'm not confident in my ability to handle the recoil of a 12 gauge when I'm still half asleep. My PC-40 and PC-9 neither blind be nor kick me hard so for me they are a viable option.

That's my personal opinion and it's worth what ya paid for it.

Other than maybe some of the old KTW rounds, I dont know of any 9mm that will penetrate a 9mm rated vest in the "protected" area, +P+, "SMG" or what.

My "Blue-9" 9x19 load stands a good chance of doing that on some of the common stuff. It's a low +P load. 115 grain FMJ slug at 1550 fps out of a carbine. I originally made those loads for flatter shooting at longer range, I only realized that "side effect" later. I might buy some test panels from BulletProofMe.com to test and see what happens. My guess is that they probably will penetrate a II-A.

Of course people could just use a Tokarev in 7.62x25.

 

[Old Grump]

From time to time, get to thinking about buying a carbine chambered for either a 45 ACP or 10mm Auto. Get to looking at the options available. Think of its potential use.

Then wonder what it would do in a self-defense scenario that couldn't be done better by a 12 gauge shotgun.

So the interest in a 45 ACP carbine passes.

You lose pinpoint accuracy in comparison, and you lose the number of rounds available. the point is which one are you more comfortable with? My personal choice would be to use the shotgun but if I was limited to one gun or the other I might well go for the carbine for the versatility of it.

 

[Nnobby45]

Maybe in between a pistol and rifle round. The M1 Carbine was highly thought of for house to house work by American GI's. Was the weapon carried by Audie Murphy who used it to good effect.

I think my DPX loaded Auto Ord. carbine will solve any real or imagined stopping power issues that seem to be the subject of debate. While mine is used mostly for a grab and go car gun, I think it's a great HD gun as well.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Perhaps in the 21th cent, the AR platform will become the American Gun as compared to the cowboy era. Certainly, sales and the use in competitions an hunting argue for that. The NSSF is pushing that angle as are some gun writers - like Gresham. People coming back from the wars will buy as SD guns.

That will defuse the negative image of such that psychological research and political decisions indicate. Note some studies clearly show that the pure hunting type have negative feelings on these guns. The Zumbo incident is an instantiation of such in the gun world.

The development of the AR in the SD and hunting world - which research shows are two different but slightly overlapping cultures - may innoculate the body politic against new AWBs and the like.

Thus, I conclude that if you want a long arm for SD - get the AR.

That said, I have both an AR and 1300 ready to go with appropriate SD ammo. Bring on the meth-terrorist-zombie-mutant-bikers.

 

[44 AMP]

In the country of the blind....

The one eyed man is king.

The M1 Carbine was highly thought of for house to house work by American GI's.

The little carbine was highly thought of because of the choices the GIs had, it was the best. M1 Garand, BAR, Tommy Gun, and 1911A1. The M1 carbine has advantages over all these for house to house work. Shorter and handier than the long guns, about half the weight of a Thompson. Given the available choices, its a good one. The M3 grease gun is also not a bad choice, but the carbine has advantages over it also. A solid buttstock, and better range for a couple.

 

[demigod]

Short .223s have serious drawbacks.

1. Muzzle flash.
Short .223 guns have very large muzzle flash vs pistol caliber carbines, even with a flash hider. Blinding yourself during a HD situation is not good.

2. Noise.
Getting my data from Silencerresearch.com here. A .357 mag or 9mm rifle meters unsuppressed at about 152 to 155 dB. A 16" M4 type rifle meters unsuppressed at 165 db. That's 10 times louder than the pistol calibers. So you're deafening yourself more with a .223 and the additional concussion can be extremely disorienting.

1. I haven't found a big flash to be a problem at all. I took the flash hider off of my 11.5" Colt commando and fired XM193 ammo. With NO flash hider at all the gun only produced a football sized flash in low light. With the A2 flash hider the flash is under the size of a baseball.

Muzzle smoke with my tac light on is a bigger distraction.

2. If you're involved in a gunfight... you often don't hear the gun discharging. Grossman's book ON COMBAT studies the physical effects of combat on the body, and the amazing things that happen in a gunfight. Picking a weapon based on how loud it is when fired isn't critical.

I also asked an instructor at the Sheriff's Office about his 10.5" M16. He said it could be a little rough in some of the older homes that have hard plaster walls inside, but really didn't think much of the issue of firing the SBR indoors.

I run an 11.5" barreled Colt carbine for home defense and think nothing of it.

 

[Nnobby45]

Given the available choices, its a good one. The M3 grease gun is also not a bad choice, but the carbine has advantages over it also. A solid buttstock, and better range for a couple.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

I agree, but something that isn't often discussed, where the carbine is concerned, is the arrival of CorBon DPX@ 1995 fps ( my chrono) from my Auto Ord..

A bullet offering deep penetration and excellent expansion, (and maybe a little barrier penetration), might take the .30 Carbine up a notch.

No, it doesn't elevate it to full rifle status, but I know I have more confidence in it with mine so loaded. So far, no street data to back up my contention, however.

 

[jmr40]

I'm with Glenn E Meyer. A short barreled rifle in 223 is the best answer. The shotgun, while useful, is way overrated.

 

[stargazer65]

Posted by GEM:
"That will defuse the negative image of such that psychological research and political decisions indicate. Note some studies clearly show that the pure hunting type have negative feelings on these guns. The Zumbo incident is an instantiation of such in the gun world."

(Emphasis mine)

From Wikipedia:
"Instantiation principle – the idea that if properties exist, the essence that "has" the properties must necessarily exist"

I thought this was mispelled word at first. Now that I know what it means, I think I'll use it in a sentence tomorrow, and see if I get blank stares.

 

[Nnobby45]

The shotgun, while useful, is way overrated.

I'd say more than "usefull", since 9 00 buck to the chest almost always ends things without delay.

 

[roy reali]

Twenty or Thirty Rounds?

My favorite part of the American Rifleman magazine is the armed citizen section. I enjoy reading those stories, espically if the BG is injured or sent on his way to meet his maker. For those of you unfamiliar with this, here is a link.

http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx

I was going through the different articles on this website. It does seem most gunfights resolve themselves after a few shots are fired. Granted, having extra rounds might be a good thing, but couldn't it also be a negative if a civil trial is a consequence of a shooting?

 

[Sevens]

You guys have hammered this one out pretty well, hitting most of the relevant points. I can only add that while I have a Mossberg 500 with the slug barrel sitting at the front of the safe, I also have a Kel-Tec Sub2k that sits on the shelf with loaded magazines nearby. It stows in a shockingly small space, it handles wonderfully from the hip and it carries a LOT of ammo and reloads at light speed when compared to a 12 ga.

It carries better from the hip than the 12 ga does, but it's difficult to shoot quickly from the shoulder. (I need to add that extension to the butt)

 

[KyJim]

Maybe in between a pistol and rifle round. The M1 Carbine was highly thought of for house to house work by American GI's. Was the weapon carried by Audie Murphy who used it to good effect.

The M1 has the ballistics of a 110 gr. .357 magnum but the .357 probably has better loads generally available for self-defense. It's advantage is accuracy at medium ranges.

Not all GIs thought highly of the M1 Carbine. My father had one in the Korean War but preferred to carry a Chinese made rifle with a magazine drum, possibly the Type 50 rifle with a drum magazine.

Regarding use in Korea, "The .30 caliber U.S. Carbine--particularly the selective-fire M2 version--was used extensively but drew many complaints because of malfunctions and general failure to operate in sub-zero cold." http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Guns+of+the+Korean+War-a03875297

I believe soldiers in the jungles in the Pacific did like the M1 Carbine.

 

[Scattergun Bob]

was going through the different articles on this website. It does seem most gunfights resolve themselves after a few shots are fired. Granted, having extra rounds might be a good thing, but couldn't it also be a negative if a civil trial is a consequence of a shooting?

Yes, or at a criminal trial! We as defensive shooters have the obligation to "turn off" our fire as soon as the aggressor is no longer a threat. Much like high capacity handguns if we fire lots of rounds, we have to justify lots of reasons for the volume of fire. We have to convince a jury of our (peers?) that we did act in a manner consistent with "what a reasonable person" would do. That is sometimes a very difficult task.

In my experiences the hardest thing to teach combatants is to seek cover and return fire. The next hardest thing is to get combatants to break focus on that target once it is neutralized and move on to the the next problem, what is called "shooting thru the target". If we fixate on our target then every twitch or jerk may draw more fire from us, a very difficult thing if we have to account for the why and how of every round fired.

Good Luck & Be Safe

 

[Sevens]

A jury of our peers would be a dozen folks who spend much of their free time here at The Firing Line Forums!

 

[Scattergun Bob]

Sevens

A jury of our peers would be a dozen folks who spend much of their free time here at The Firing Line Forums!

That might be a good thing or a bad thing. A slick attorney my be able to pull the wool over the eyes of a uneducated jury member. It seems harder and harder to pull the wool over the eyes of this forums' members.

One of my main points of lecture is that "gunfights happen because of mistakes made by both parties."

Good Luck & Be Safe

 

[Brit]

The Jury thing in Florida is a non starter.

And I live here. A 9mm Glock 19 that goes from holster to Bed Side table is better than a shotgun, or a rifle/carbine et al. Great night sights, 127g +P+ Ranger, will work good. My magazine in (but breach empty) AK 47, with the 20 rounds of hollow points (front of safe) with a sling is the "in the back of the Jeep and go gun.

The question? Shotgun or Pistol Calibre carbine, carbine gets the nod, my M1 carbine is a handy wee rifle also, tough little chap.

 

[44 AMP]

Pistol caliber carbine

Short barrel .223s are a lot of useful things, but one thing they are not is a pistol caliber carbine.

I haven't found a big flash to be a problem at all. I took the flash hider off of my 11.5" Colt commando and fired XM193 ammo. With NO flash hider at all the gun only produced a football sized flash in low light. With the A2 flash hider the flash is under the size of a baseball.

You have some good ammo. Try firing that SBR with generic 55gr. Your results might be quite different. Back in the 80s I had one of the commando length barrels, with the long flash suppressor, and with cheap blaster ammo, the muzzle flash was a perfect cross, with each arm being about 1 foot long. Definately NOT the best choice for low light situations.

Pistol caliber carbines come in a couple of flavors. Lever guns chambered for revolver rounds, and various semi auto versions of SMGs and military rifles, chambered for auto pistol rounds.

SBRs, are not what is being asked about. .223s & AKs are not what is being asked about. What is the benefit/drawback of pistol caliber carbines vs 12ga for personal (home) defense? That's the question.

No body is denigrating the close range stopping power of the 12ga. Only the size/recoil/round capacity vs the pistol caliber carbine seems to be the question.

I've got a Marlin 1894 .357mag. I've also got an Auto Ordnance M1927A1 .45acp. Both pistol caliber carbines, but quite different guns, beyond that. I wouldn't choose the Tommygun over the Marlin, or a 12ga, its heavier and more awkward, although it does hold a lot more rounds.

To be legal for most of us to own, the carbine has to have a 16" barrel. The MP5 may be a great entry weapon, but the HK 94 isn't quite so handy. My point is that a legal length pistol caliber carbine and a legal length short barrel shotgun are not all that different in length. So they have about the same degree of "handiness" inside the house.

As others have noted, the huge majority of civilian defense shootings resolve themselves with very few rounds actually fired. Cops and TV heroes can shoot to slide lock, reload and do it again, but you and I would have a LOT of explaining to do if we did that.

 

[Sevens]

My point is that a legal length pistol caliber carbine and a legal length short barrel shotgun are not all that different in length. So they have about the same degree of "handiness" inside the house.

I don't agree that a K-T Sub2k and a 12 ga have the same degree of handiness inside a house. Especially if the 12 ga has a stock on it. And if it doesn't, handy goes right out the window with the ability to employ it with any skill.

 

[44 AMP]

I don't agree that a K-T Sub2k and a 12 ga have the same degree of handiness inside a house. Especially if the 12 ga has a stock on it.

You are welcome to your opinion, and for you the carbine you mention might be handier. How much smaller is it than a stocked 12ga pump (with min legal barrel?) 2inches? 3? Is that a significant amount? And would it make a difference for me, just because it does for you?

As to this,

And if it doesn't, handy goes right out the window with the ability to employ it with any skill.

That's an opinion about people using something when you have no personal knowledge of their skill levels. It may be true for you, but it isn't automatically true for everyone.

Everyone should use what they have, and are most comfortable with. Some things are better for some people than others. Just don't imply (or boldly state) that something is useless, just because it isn't your personal choice.