Personal example of why I don't like the 1911 and a couple of questions.
- Thread starter Crow Hunter
- Start date
bitttorrrent
New member
1911tuner...
ok i watched a u tube so first time took 30 min not 30 sec. i was worried about idoit scratch but on closer inspection was already there. i am much quicker after a few more times.
ok i watched a u tube so first time took 30 min not 30 sec. i was worried about idoit scratch but on closer inspection was already there. i am much quicker after a few more times.
Crow Hunter
New member
I never said it was a failure of the design.
I said it was why I don't like the 1911. There are lots of guns out there that have excellent designs, but I don't like them either. The gun was pointed downrange and aimed at the target. It was just pointed towards the ground because of the grip angle and the way I am used to shooting a gun. When I shoot a Glock, and the gun is between me and the target, I put my finger on the trigger and start pulling on this close range defensive drill. (FAST drill) I was not expecting to see the back of the slide and just the front sight. I would have corrected the issue and stopped pulling until I saw the front sight, but that particular 1911 has a very light trigger on it. (Think single action S&W revolver weight, which is way lighter than I am used to/like)
When I say ground, I don't mean I shot the ground at my feet. I shot it right underneath the target, which was only about 1 foot off the ground to begin with.
As I brought the gun up to my line of sight and aimed at the target, all I could see was the back of the slide and the rear sight. As I was lifting the gun to see the front sight I clicked off the safety and apparently had enough force on the trigger to let the hammer fall. So I fired it before I was ready due to my using the same movements that I have used for years with the Glock.
Had I been firing a Glock, it would have center punched the target because my sights would have been lined up with the target and I would have had a longer heavier trigger pull.
It wasn't an "oh crap" I just had a ND. It was dang it, that wasn't where I meant to shoot, I called it low. Brought the gun back to low ready and then proceeded to shoot a very nicely centered group of touching or nearly touching .45" diameter holes. (Actually on par with what I can do with a Glock, even with "no training"
, one of the benefits of that really light trigger)It is all a matter of what you are used to and train with when firing quickly from 7 yards. This is one of the reasons, I keep my defensive guns all the same. I just target shoot with other "fun" guns.
After the 1st round and on additional 3 times I ran the drill, I did not click off the safety until I could see the front sight to compensate for the inferior grip angle. Made me a lot slower.
Since I don't own or plan on ever carrying or relying on a 1911 for anything the rest of my life, why would I need training with a 1911? I don't plan on doing this with a Ruger P89 or a P08 Luger either, should I get training on them also?
After the performance of this particular 1911, I don't believe that my brother will be very keen on relying on the 1911 for anything either.
He normally carries a Glock (19 or 30) and is a Glock armorer as well, but he has been eyeing that Sig Nightmare Officer's sized 1911 because he loved how accurate his MC Operator was. Of course, having a magazine cease to lock open the slide and having a critical piece just fall out of the gun while doing a routine field strip with only a couple 1,000 rounds will probably color his opinion a little.
My brother and I have been shooting together for nigh on 30 years now, we don't have any safety issues, but thanks for your concern.
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Crow Hunter
New member
A 1911 with the A1 mainspring housing isn't that bad, just a little low. I can usually still see the very tip of the front sight with my standard grip. My old Springfield Armory Loaded model had this and it is the 1911 that I have the most experience shooting.
This particular one has the flat mainspring housing and it really makes it point WAY low for me. I have to make a very concerted effort to "unlock" my wrist and bend it back to get the sights lined up right.
My brother's wrist locks more vertical naturally, so he actually prefers the 1911 and Sig for quick reactive shooting. He usually shoots high with Glocks if he has been playing around with his other guns too much.
This particular one has the flat mainspring housing and it really makes it point WAY low for me. I have to make a very concerted effort to "unlock" my wrist and bend it back to get the sights lined up right.
My brother's wrist locks more vertical naturally, so he actually prefers the 1911 and Sig for quick reactive shooting. He usually shoots high with Glocks if he has been playing around with his other guns too much.
Don't feel bad Crow Hunter, 1911s don't point naturally. A SAA, Luger, PM9 those are some examples of handguns that point like your finger.
With a 1911, try pointing the muzzle at the ground, straight down by your side, locking your elbow and wrist, then raising it up to eye level, you should be squared up pretty well. That will give you a good reference point.
I can't find a good illustration, but the eye level arm position above, is how you should end up. It was developed originally to get a 1911 into point shooting position.
With a 1911, try pointing the muzzle at the ground, straight down by your side, locking your elbow and wrist, then raising it up to eye level, you should be squared up pretty well. That will give you a good reference point.
I can't find a good illustration, but the eye level arm position above, is how you should end up. It was developed originally to get a 1911 into point shooting position.
Housing
The arched housing came along in order to correct the tendency to shoot low under stress, and it worked pretty well. For comfort and effectiveness at eye-level point-shooting and aimed fire, the flat housing gets the nod, even though I can do about as well with either. The flat housing does tend to distribute the "whack" of the slide impacting the frame more evenly over my hand...which is where 95% of the felt recoil comes from with a locked breech autopistol, and it doesn't leave the heel of my hand feeling bruised after a 500-round session.
After burning a conservatively estimated 3/4 million rounds through various 1911 pistols over the last half-century, that's hardly surprising. If I'd spent the same amount of time with about any platform you can name, I'd expect the results to be pretty much the same.
But...
I've found that in quick, close range waist to mid-body level point shooting, the arched housing holds an edge over the flat housing. Once I bring the gun to shoulder level, the line starts to blur.
It all boils down to what you get used to. Work with it enough, and you can learn to be effective with anything. Your hand and eye will adapt over time with repetition. Some designs are just more easy to come to terms with.
The arched housing came along in order to correct the tendency to shoot low under stress, and it worked pretty well. For comfort and effectiveness at eye-level point-shooting and aimed fire, the flat housing gets the nod, even though I can do about as well with either. The flat housing does tend to distribute the "whack" of the slide impacting the frame more evenly over my hand...which is where 95% of the felt recoil comes from with a locked breech autopistol, and it doesn't leave the heel of my hand feeling bruised after a 500-round session.
After burning a conservatively estimated 3/4 million rounds through various 1911 pistols over the last half-century, that's hardly surprising. If I'd spent the same amount of time with about any platform you can name, I'd expect the results to be pretty much the same.
But...
I've found that in quick, close range waist to mid-body level point shooting, the arched housing holds an edge over the flat housing. Once I bring the gun to shoulder level, the line starts to blur.
It all boils down to what you get used to. Work with it enough, and you can learn to be effective with anything. Your hand and eye will adapt over time with repetition. Some designs are just more easy to come to terms with.
Crow Hunter
New member
I acutally grew up shooting single action revolvers but I have been shooting Glocks since 1998 or so.
I am still the most accurate (and have the most fun) shooting my Dad's old Single Six, but I only shoot it target shooting, not FAST drills with it.
I bought all my automatics at around the same time. I owned a S&W 909 (I think), Beretta 92, Taurus PT92, HK USP, Browning HP, SA 1911A1, Walther PPK, Walther P5, Sig P229, P220, P228, P225, P232, (I really wanted Sigs to work for me
), and several Glocks. Doing "shoot offs" over the years, I pared it down to what I shot the best and most repeatably in realistic defensive drills. (Not just target shooting)
That was actually what I was doing this time. I was doing a comparison between my G19 and a S&W M&P 9c. Actually, if I were starting completely over again, I would probably get the S&W as I actually shot it on par to possibly even a little better than I did the G19. Especially considering that is only the 3rd time I have even shot a M&P.
But I have 4 G19s, spare parts, 60+ magazines, .22 conversion and I am a Glock armorer. I didn't shoot the S&W M&P THAT much better.
I also didn't like the M&P .22 (Umarex). Which I also tried out in comparison to my Advantage Arms Conversion while I was at it. While it looks like a M&P and sort of feels like the M&P, the trigger & safety isn't similar. It does shoot very nicely suppressed though. Sounds like a pellet gun.
Which brings me to my final dislike of the 1911, which I forgot to add in my OP. You can't cycle the slide with the safety on. I had been working with the M&P 9c with thumb safety, for about 1.5 hours when my brother brought out the 1911. With the S&W, I kept the safety on until I brought the gun to eye level and in the same motion clicked the safety off when I got my flash sight picture and started pulling the trigger. Loading, magazine changes,etc. If the gun wasn't on the target, the safety was on.
When he handed the 1911 to me and I went to chamber a round, I couldn't get the slide to move for a second or 2 and I said WTH. Then I remembered I had to take the safety off.
It is an EXTREMELY accurate, beautiful looking, and somewhat hefty gun that I am sure lots of other people really like.
I don't.
Thanks for the advice on how to fix this one though.
bitttorrrent
New member
I think I am in the same boat. I really like 1911's and the two I have are sweet, but after shooting them side by side, I am tending toward others.
Kinda like the other day my brother and I were discussing his upcoming purchase of a new car - Audi vs BMW. I have driven both recently and actually liked the Audi. He liked the BMW. It is not that either car is bad. They are both excellent, but one will appeal a little more to a certain individual.
ps you have a lot of Sigs, but said they were not working for you? Just curios why not. I was looking to get a few and just wondering how they compared to you 1911.
Crow Hunter
New member
I USED to have a bunch of Sigs.
I sold/traded them off a long time ago.
They were exceptionally nice guns. Beautiful triggers, especially the P220, but I didn't shoot them as well as I did the Glock under time constraints non-target shooting conditions. I shot the Glocks faster and more accurately in defensive scenarios. (Drawing from concealment, getting off the X and firing rapid controlled shots on multiple targets)
Target shooting, I probably did a little better with them. Especially in single action.
I carried several of them for a while CCW and one of them rusted, I think it was the P228, but it might have been the P225) on the slide a little bit, which I didn't like.
These were all, with the exception of the P229, the stamped steel German guns.
My brother owns a newer P226 Blackwater Edition and it is a nice, if kind of large, heavy gun. (It has 20 rd magazines
) It is very accurate but it shoots about 3 in below POA for me. It does keep me from looking at how I am shooting though, I can't see the bullet impacts until I drop the gun. I still would like to try out a Sig P239. I don't mind the DA/SA transition that much, and I like the feel of the gun (never shot one though).
My advice would be to get one and try it out, unless you know someone who has one that you can run through its paces. That is really the only way to find out what works best for you. What works for me or others might not work for you. My brother much prefers the Sigs to Glocks. (I have been trying to get him to get a Sig P239 for me to "borrow".
)Having worked with both BMW and Audi engineers in the past, I would prefer the Audi.
Jim Watson
New member
Probably.
But be nice and get them to send you a pin.
Running up a hundred dollar Fedups bill to return the whole gun for replacement of a $.50 pin is just ridiculous.
Tactical Jackalope
New member
They both point the same for me. I can take my G19, 1911's and G21sf out in the same range session and do evenly with them all.
Guess everyone really is different.