Pentagon Confirms Move to 6.8mm

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davidsog

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Those reports were not always consistent – some units would
report a “through-and-through” problem, while others expressed
nothing but confidence in the performance of their M4 carbines

In its entirety:

Not long after the US Army’s entry into Afghanistan, reports from the field began to surface that in close quarters engagements, some Soldiers were experiencing multiple “through-and-through” hits on an enemy combatant where the target continued to fight. Similar reports arose following the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Those reports were not always consistent – some units would report a “through-and-through” problem, while others expressed nothing but confidence in the performance of their M4 carbines or M16 rifles.

It is a statement about General Battlefield performance of 5.56mm without regard to specific details of the unit engaging at close quarters. It does not specify data specifics of units whose mission skillset was Initiative Based CQB.

SOCOM does not use M16 rifles in CQB, very different physics when fired from a M16 compared to a SOCOM M4.

they are still being provided the best performing weapons and ammunition available while the armaments community works to develop something even better.

That effort is planned to look at longer ranges, intermediate barriers, and different target postures, and will further refine the tools and methods developed in the original study.

Hence, 6.8 Fury....

The idea that "8 rounds average" was some isolated experience, an immediate stop at CQB distances is not a priority, or that the Army ignored the tested results is poppycock.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
The source is the USASOC experience confirmed by Aberdeen combined with the fact the Army is seeking a replacement for 5.56mm for Close Quarters.
The point is that USASOC hasn't made any information like that public, nor has Aberdeen.

The fact that the Army is looking for a replacement means they are unsatisified with it. That doesn't provide any actual evidence for the very specific claim that it took "8 rounds average" to incapacitate at close range.
The idea that "8 rounds average" was some isolated experience, an immediate stop at CQB distances is not a priority, or that the Army ignored the tested results is poppycock.
To be fair, you can not produce any evidence of the "8 rounds average" so it remains anecdotal. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it does mean that without additional confirmation or corroborating evidence, it's hard to know exactly what to make of it. Does that make it an "isolated experience"? Well...

1. It doesn't seem that it's a universal or widespread experience, given that some studies indicate that people even using M4 carbines were satisfied with the effect and it strains credibility to believe that anyone could be satisfied with needing 8 rifle rounds, on average, to effect a stop.

2. You, yourself, have indicated that the "8 rounds average" was with ammunition that is no longer issued which also seems to argue against it being a universal or widespread experience since that ammo stopped being issued.

As far as the rest of the quote, I don't believe anyone has claimed that "an immediate stop at CQB distances is not a priority" so I think it's fair to say that it's poppycock.

I'm not sure what to make about comment regarding the Army ignoring tested results--who made that claim?
 

davidsog

New member
JohnKSa says:
The point is that USASOC hasn't made any information like that public, nor has Aberdeen.

That is really not my issue and I don't control what they do.

JohnKSa says:
The fact that the Army is looking for a replacement means they are unsatisified with it.

Yes, they are very unsatisfied and with good reason. Having to pump 8 rounds into a target to get them to go down at Close Quarters will leave a lasting impression upon you.

JohnKSa says:
To be fair, you can not produce any evidence of the "8 rounds average" so it remains anecdotal.

Makes no sense. All evidence is anecdotal until tested scientifically. The Army along with Aberdeen did that and pushed for a change in ammunition based on measured results with increased lethality at CQB ranges as stated goal.

Once again, all of the evidence gathered over thousands of engagements is anecdotal until put to the test by engineers. Those engineers have spoken on the results of that testing by developing a solution to the problem the anectodical evidence raised.

This is such a circular argument "8 rounds" is anecdotal. That does not mean that evidence was not reality nor does it mean it did not hold up to scientific scrutiny. That scrutiny has led the Army to seek a replacement.

2damnold4this says:
I don't believe anyone has claimed that "an immediate stop at CQB distances is not a priority"

Mmmm, In reading multiple post's it seems the experience was immediately called into question and followed up with several post's minimizing the importance of stopping power at CQB distances in terms of 6.8 Fury.

2damnold4this says:
What cartridge has our army outgunned at CQB distances?

2damnold4this says:
Do you have a link to an article that shows that the new 6.8 cartridge will be better than the 5.56 or 7.62 at CQB distances with something evidence like gel tests?

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6958737&postcount=405

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6958761&postcount=411

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6958764&postcount=414

I highlighted the stated goals in adopting 6.8 Fury for 2damnold4this:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6958766&postcount=415

Yes, the claim was made that improved performance at CQB distances was not the priority of the ammunition. Improved Performance in CQB ammunition means the ability to achieve a more consistent immediate stop.
 
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2damnold4this

New member
I think your argument is getting a bit circular, likely because you aren't able to provide evidence to back your claims.

I get that some units and individuals were not happy with the performance of 5.56 from their M4s or M16s at CQB distances while others were. There is a documented problem with M855 ball giving inconsistent performance at CQB distances. I get that being in the same room as an enemy who is still trying to kill you after he has been shot is very disconcerting.

From one of the links you provided, we know that the much more powerful M80 ball was in the same performance range as 5.56. What we don't know is whether or not the new 6.8 round will be any better than M80 ball.

Many of the links you have provided tout the performance of the new 6.8 round at distance and against body armor. What we haven't seen is any claims that it solves the issues M855 had at CQB distances. A 6.8 round that icepicks isn't going to be any better than a 7.62 round that icepicks which was why the M80 ball didn't outperform 5.56 in the article you linked. We don't have any evidence that the new 6.8 round will do any better at CQB distances than 5.56 or 7.62 and the claims the Army is making talk up penetrating body armor and performance at distance, not performance at CQB.
 

44 AMP

Staff
From one of the links you provided, we know that the much more powerful M80 ball was in the same performance range as 5.56.

I think it said "same performance band" and I have to wonder what that is, exactly.

If it is "shot the bad guy several times, they fell down and stopped fighting" then, it seems rather pointless. Every shooting situation has different variables and exactly where on a graph it gets plotted can only be based on results, and which factors are the actual deciding factors are open to numerous interpretations.

Bad hits (non stoppers) get counted into the total and averages created. Close combat, in particular, isn't calm cool methodical range shooting. The mentioned 8 round average experienced by one group might possibly be 7 poor hits and one good one. We don't know, the averages and statistical plotting don't tell us that. After action reports won't tell us that.

I doubt medical exams of enemy KIA's (when done) aren't looking for that, if they could even see it.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
Makes no sense. All evidence is anecdotal until tested scientifically.
No, it's anecdotal until there is some sort of confirmation of it, along with something that suggests that it is representative, as opposed to an outlier experience.

They can't exactly "scientifically test" that it takes 8 rounds to incapacitate people at close range because it's frowned upon to shoot people for testing purposes. They would have to do studies based on large amounts of collected information from actual combat experience if they want to know about that. If anyone has done that, they haven't made the results public.

They have made public the results of some testing indicating that they don't think it's lethal enough, but that appears to be based on numerical results and graphs resulting from controlled testing, not based on claims that it takes "8 rounds average" to incapacitate at CQB distances.
The Army along with Aberdeen did that and pushed for a change in ammunition based on measured results with increased lethality at CQB ranges as stated goal.
It does seem that the Army wants something more lethal. But that doesn't mean they are confirming that it takes "8 rounds on average" to incapacitate at CQB ranges. It could mean that they believe it is taking too long to incapacitate at CQB ranges, or it could mean that it's taking too many rounds, or a combination of the two. Too many rounds could mean that, on average it's taking 4 when they want it to take 3, or maybe 3 when they want it to take 1. Or 5 when they want 1. We don't know what they think it takes to incapacitate at CQB because they haven't told us. The only place we can find the claim about "8 rounds" is one person posting on this thread.

Until someone publishes something official we won't know what the specific basis for their decision to look for another round--in particular we won't have confirmation that the issue is with your experiences with some ammunition that is no longer issued. And we won't have any sort of confirmation that the "8 rounds average" was anything other than an isolated experience.

What you're doing is like this:

Bob claims he has 3 tires go flat on his car. Later on, he sees that there's a recall on the same brand of tire, but a different model. The tire manufacturer indicates that the tires may have a shorter life than claimed. Bob tells everyone that his experience proves 3 out of every 4 tires from that manufacturer will go flat, that the recall is proof that the manufacturer knows about and believes his claim and that his experience is the reason for the recall even though;
  • ...there's no way for anyone to confirm that the manufacturer knew about his experience.
  • ...he admits that the specific model of tire that went flat on his car is different from the one being recalled although the brand is the same.
  • ...there's no independent confirmation of Bob's experience so people can't analyze it carefully to determine if there were other factors involved.
  • ...Bob's experience can't shown to be anything other than an isolated experience.
  • ...other people using the recalled tires don't report having multiple flats although some of them do indicate that they were unsatisfied with the tires because they wore out too quickly.
 

rickyrick

New member
Since this thread has been going, I have read several articles on the subject of the new cartridge and every single one of the articles that I have read stated that the purpose of the cartridge is to increase its effectiveness and penetrate at ranges further than what the 5.56 cartridge is capable of. They do not mention that the main purpose of the new cartridge and subsequent weapons is to increase lethality in CQB. They do mention that it also does increase performance at CQB, and that the shorter barrel allows it to also perform double duty.
I haven’t read every article out there, and some articles seem to be regurgitating information from other articles.
Not sure why publicity would be inverse to Army intentions, doesn’t make sense.

In the end, does it really matter that much if we end up with a weapon that can perform better in more than one application?
I bet my measly paycheck that when all said and done, it will still take several shots to stop a threat in situations where it used to take several shots to stop a threat, especially if using projectiles intended to penetrate. Might take less, might take the same, might even be more… but I know one thing, it won’t be one shot instant stops every battle…
 

44 AMP

Staff
every single one of the articles that I have read stated that the purpose of the cartridge is to increase its effectiveness and penetrate at ranges further than what the 5.56 cartridge is capable of.

Of course they're going to say that. I would expect them to say that, its the "mission statement".

Now look at what they're not telling you. What, exactly, is "increased effectiveness"??? What (and whose) yardstick measures that???

Another thing they aren't telling us is, are they looking at individual cartridge performance, or system performance, where the cartridge ballistics are only one part of what is being judged???

Another thing not being spelled out is the "ands", There is always an "and" involved, usually several of them, some are little ands and some are big ones, but they are always there, and seldom mentioned unless doing so adds to the appeal of the chosen item(s).

The new round will do this thing, and do that thing, and, and, AND what else??

What other hoops have to be jumped through, or what box does it ALSO have to fit into? Those are the "ands" some of them pretty obvious, some rather subtle, and some of them are created just to inflate egos, build kingdoms and increase profits for the suppliers (AND at taxpayer expense :rolleyes:)

Consider, if all that matters is greater "effectiveness" and range than the 5.56mm, the Army had that, before we even adopted the 5.56mm.

It is all the other "ands" (extra requirements) that matter, and often matter more than the stated "better performance and range) that put ideas into, or remove them from consideration.

One of the big "ands", one never stated or admitted to, is the bureaucratic requirement of "we can't go back to what we used before".

That would amount to admitting they were wrong, and they really hate to do that, especially if they actually were wrong....:rolleyes:

So, when what we are now using (that they chose) isn't working as well as hoped, or as well as advertised, we're not allowed to go back to what did work before, we must go forward, and find/create something new, and along the way create new expectations/requirements to justify the new item /system. It's not just weapons, or weapon systems, virtually everything we use gets that treatment from the system.

While it is certainly true that we do develop (and sometimes field) things that work "better" by not only doing their primary job but also meeting additional "and" requirements, there is no "dead ++"

Paper promises and statistical studies are useful things, provided you keep in mind that only real world performance accurately shows you real world performance and results.

The new round might be the best thing since sliced bread, canned beer, and girls who smell nice, but until we see actual real world combat results, its all just hype.
 

rickyrick

New member
If I’m remembering correctly, the projectile properties are unknown aside from caliber. Samples provided to the public are SMK clones.
There is also a fair amount of difference in performance, construction and pressure between the the civilian .277 fury and the military 6.8 common cartridge.
 

labnoti

New member
The projectiles can't be magic. We have .277 Fury cases and we can load it with whatever bullets are available -- pretty much everything except those with tungsten penetrators. We have body armor, and we know what .270, .270WSM, .277 Fury and just about every other smallbore rifle will do on level 4 plates with ordinary steel-core bullets. Heck, load up a 7mm RUM -- even with high pressure, the Fury doesn't have more than that. If the 277 is going to defeat Chinese and Russian body armor, it won't be with ordinary bullets. Does the US have enough tungsten to produce sufficient quantity of AP bullets? How many billion can it produce in one year?
 

44 AMP

Staff
Does the US have enough tungsten to produce sufficient quantity of AP bullets? How many billion can it produce in one year?

DU! :D:eek:

Tungsten has a lot of uses. Depleted Uranium isn't quite as versatile. :D
 

labnoti

New member
The US is supposed to have about 750,000 tons of DU and about 200,000 tons of tungsten. According to the estimates in this article: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/10/29/level-iv-unbeatable-armor-caliber-problem-tungsten/

The 200,000 pounds, plus what the US could import from friendly nations and reclaim from industrial operations, would only last three years in a major conflict. Supposing DU were to be used instead, it might provide several more years supply of small arms ammunition -- of course, it wouldn't be without controversy and other dilemmas.

But how does the 277 Fury factor into this? 308 or even 223 with tungsten penetrators are just as viable against body armor as 277 would be. What's the supposed advantage of the Fury?
 
Could somebody here summarize whether there was generally a Single reason to consider the change From 5.56,

or possibly the two most important reasons?

It makes no difference to me (I don't own anything in 5.56/.223), simply curious.
 

44 AMP

Staff
or possibly the two most important reasons?

1) Because they could
2) the money was there to do it with

The military spent the best part of half a century tweaking the M16 and its ammo, and it appears that finally, NOW, they have given up on that, and since they never seem to go back to what worked before and was abandoned, they must go forward, with the latest, greatest "new" thing.

I can think of no situation where a .277 caliber rifle can provide a significant practical advantage over a .308 caliber rifle. A measurable difference, yes. A significant improvement? I don't see it.

Do note that comparisons against the 7.62 NATO are nearly always against M80 ball and standard, current GI ball ammo is not the only loading possible, its just what is in common use. And its was created to replicate the WWII GI .30-06 performance.

Sure, the new 6.8 outperforms that in several ways. Makes the 6.8 look really good. What happens when you load the 7.62 NATO up to its potential, using the same kind of "tricks" the 6.8 uses??

The basic problem faced by our military is they want a one ring to rule them all, and don't want to accept the fact that there's no free lunch.
 

Jim Watson

New member
It sticks in my head that the original plan was for a new machine gun and the rifle just scabbed on later. Common ammo, si. Other features, maybe.

Has anybody compared expensive AP (Say, is it metallic tungsten or cemented tungsten carbide? I sense some confusion and conflation.) and exotic AP (Uranium, really?) with good old WWII hard steel?
 

44 AMP

Staff
Did a little checking, and WWII (and I believe still currently) .30 AP uses a hardened steel core, not tungsten.

Current "plate protection" will stop rifle caliber ball, not sure if it will stop AP, and the plates are not large, and, of course no vest will stop the energy dump.

The amount of DU on hand is, essentially only limited by what the govt is willing to spend "refining" it. Literally, all spent nuclear fuel can be refined to remove the Uranium, which makes up over 90% of the mass. Refining the Uranium from the fuel is a strait forward chemical process, and while not cheap to build, one refining plant could process then of thousands of tons a year.

We have a LOT of spent nuclear fuel in storage, left overs from Cold War weapon production, spent fuel from Navy reactors and even the fuel from Commerical power plant reactors can be a source for DU.

It would be interesting to see some testing results from hitting the "dreaded new body armor" with standard .30 M2 AP. Comparing those results with the 6.8mm against the same armor. And also what might be the results if we "upgraded" our standard .30 AP.

Not going to see that, until after we get our hands on what ever the enemy's new body armor actually is, but it would be interesting, I think.

I find it somewhat ironic that the 62gr 5.56mm with its steel penetrator insert was developed and fielded to counter the (then new) Soviet pact body armor, that (as far as I know,) we have never faced, to date.

Are we doing something similar with the 6.8mm?? Time will tell.
 

rickyrick

New member
I did see a test using both the 277fury and the 6.8 military cartridge on level 4 plates both failed to penetrate on the first hit, I think the military cartridge did get through on the second shot, but neither version had penetrator bullets. Both made a mess of the plates, but the military version packed more punch than the 277fury.
 

labnoti

New member
M2 is hardened steel and it is the standard that all level IV plates are tested to, so by definition, the ammo's performance would have to exceed that of M2 AP (hardened steel penetrators out of .30-06) to defeat level IV plates. 7.62x51 AP (M61) is less capable than M2, so while it may be more prevalent nowadays, there's no point to testing it since level IV plates stop the superior M2.

To defeat level IV plates requires tungsten penetrators or something more powerful than .30-06, like 338 Lapua AP485 or 50 BMG API.

Uranium is not unprecedented. It has been or is being used in Ukraine and it's use is controversial because it contaminates the area where it is used. Although it is "depleted," it's still radioactive and it can contaminate an area for a very long time. Spraying entire countries with tens of billions of radioactive uranium bullets, amounting to scattering hundreds of thousands of tons of radioactive waste would be disastrous in the very long term on top of what the war itself would destroy in the shorter term. While I don't doubt that DU would be used on the battlefield, I expect it would see greater demand for use in 30mm canons, 120mm anti-tank rounds, 105 and 155mm artillery and more. Consuming it for small-arms use by regular infantry forces (non-SOCOM) seems an unlikely scenario.
 

2damnold4this

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There are plenty of people being killed or suffering disabling injuries from being shot by small arms cartridges that aren't the new 6.8 common cartridge. But the real killer in Ukraine isn't small arms, it's artillery.
 
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