Penetration Over Maximum Expansion? Handgun rounds

[JohnKSa]

And yet there was a police shooting in NYC not too long ago, where it was reported that several (4 out of 6, I think) of the approved police 9mm rounds were stopped by the Carhartt jacket of the guy they shot.

Although that is what was initially reported, we should have immediately been highly suspicious that the initial report was in error since we know that self-defense ammunition is tested to insure that it will penetrate heavy clothing and still retain enough energy/momentum to still penetrate adequately into the target.

So what happened?

Two of the bullets that passed through the jacket, into the target, through the target, exited the target and then failed to penetrate OUT the BACK of the jacket.

In other words, they provided not just adequate performance, but IDEAL performance. They penetrated the target through-and-through and exited without sufficient energy/momentum to injure anyone else.

https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/06/03/claims-carhartt-jacket-stopped-nypd-bullets-false/

"The bullets cops fired at an unhinged, knife-waving stagehand in a deadly off-Broadway confrontation last month were not defective — as one report had erroneously suggested, police said Thursday.

On May 18, an NYPD sergeant and an officer fired nine shots at Garry Conrad, after the enraged man approached three cops with an 8-inch blade on Eighth Ave. and 49th St. Conrad did not survive.

Another outlet’s erroneous report suggested two bullets didn’t penetrate Conrad’s non-bullet-proof Carhartt jacket, but Inspector Emanuel Katranakis on Thursday reiterated what police told the Daily News at the time.

“The ammunition and the projectiles functioned as designed,” Katranakis said.

The bullets did not penetrate the back of Conrad’s jacket."​

Let's not let confirmation bias get the best of us, especially when we have the evidence and knowledge to defeat it.

1. Any ammunition so defectively weak that it is incapable of penetrating heavy clothing also wouldn't be able to cycle the slide of a semi-auto pistol.

2. Premium self-defense ammunition is tested to insure proper penetration, even AFTER passing through intermediate barriers such as heavy clothing, sheet metal, auto glass, plywood, drywall, etc.

 

[briandg]

Too many posts on these threads turn into blue sky, straw man, crystal ball, one in a thousand, make you believe in god or the devil scenarios and past events.

we discuss the likelihood that a casull will go through a suitcase, pass through a bad guy, then possibly cause injury or damage. There is a single fact that just lurks around the corner as we do so.

That single fact is that no matter how much effort we put into prediction and analysis of past events, every round fired at meat will have it's own agenda, it might even manage to miss. then, every piece of meat has its own agenda.

Chaos rules. Nothing anyone can do can trump it. If someone is worried about shooting pregnant women at a mall, the best way to avoid that is to not shoot. True, the bad guy may throw a bullet right through your forehead, but you can die with a clear conscience. Oh, wait, unless your inaction leads to the pregnant woman's death?

I've done my best, set up a weapon system that I expect to work as well as anything else I could carry. I have a pretty good understanding of what I should and should not do, and how to do it. I could spend tens of thousands of dollars on training, better guns, better ammo, training ammo, range fees, and MAYBE that would affect any shooting I get into. maybe. I'm going to put my faith in God or random chaos to keep me out of trouble, and my own abilities, the quality of my weapon. Beyond that, I'm going to hope that they guy I shoot is going to fall down motionless when I hit him and that nobody else gets hurt. If I have time and the presence of mind, I'm going to pray as I pull the trigger.

 

[briandg]

another point that was made earlier, 44amp stated that there are no magic bullets. No smart bullets. Every bullet out there is just as dumb as a lump of lead. (see what I did there? that was a joke, son! laugh, i tell ya, laugh!) There will be failures. there will be successes beyond the wildest expectations. Someone out there has killed an elephant with a bow, cavemen killed mammoths with rocks and spears. Those were far from ideal. Mammoth isn't exactly gelatin, either. Any person who returned from a mammoth hunt with a piece of tenderloin was simply very fortunate.

Point being that bullets may be as dumb as a club, but we hand picked that projectile weapon and designed it to work best at its purposes. Every dead caveman is looking at us down through history with envy. he got stomped into goo because his club wasn't smart.

take what you have into the situation that you are in, and even a stupid bullet is better than the smartest club in the history of mankind.

 

[44 AMP]

I note that there's no databases on "one spear stops" for mammoth....

And especially, no data on how many hunters were lost (killed/crippled) per mammoth....

Thanks JohnKSa for the actual facts that generated the headline I remembered.

"Over" and "excess" penetration are value judgements.

"Complete" penetration is a statement of fact, and does not change due to different situations, the way a value judgement can.

I look at it the way I look at a defensive weapon, and a number of other things in life...

"it's better to have it, and not need it, than to need it, and not have it!!"

And, yes, I'm heartless enough to accept the microscopically small risk to others, in order to have it when (if) I need it.

but, that's just me...

 

[briandg]

And, yes, I'm heartless enough to accept the microscopically small risk to others, in order to have it when (if) I need it.

the risk that someday you or I will have to go through that entire chain of decisions and events and having it lead to serious injury to a bystander is probably only measurable on the nanoscale.

just one time i'd like to see documentation of a pass through injuring a bystander badly enough to make me regret my choice of using a 9mm round that was calibrated to a foot of jello.

like you, that's a risk that i will willingly take in order to save a life.

Did i ever mention the guy who kept his .454 casull in his night stand, and considered it to be the only option that he had for home defense? He lived in an apartment, at least he claimed to. That's a whole different level of foolishness. or one heck of a lie. he was capable of both.

 

[buck460XVR]

So, how do you control the amount of penetration when you can possibly meet varying amount of resistance to bullet penetration?

Those of us that hunt large game have a similar problem. The average hunter will take deer sized game anywhere from 80# to 240#. Penetration and expansion of the same bullet will be quite different on both. Hitting that 240 pounder squarely in the shoulder will also impact penetration and expansion differently than hitting that same deer behind the shoulder, between the ribs. So we pick bullets that will give us the best overall performance for most of the scenarios we think may occur. When it comes to SD tho, I'd rather error on the side of penetration than expansion. I'm responsible for all of the bullets that leave my barrel, and I understand the consequences. If there are innocent bystanders in the way or behind the BG, odds are, I ain't gonna shoot.

 

[USSR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by USSR View Post
So, how do you control the amount of penetration when you can possibly meet varying amount of resistance to bullet penetration?

Those of us that hunt large game have a similar problem. The average hunter will take deer sized game anywhere from 80# to 240#. Penetration and expansion of the same bullet will be quite different on both. Hitting that 240 pounder squarely in the shoulder will also impact penetration and expansion differently than hitting that same deer behind the shoulder, between the ribs. So we pick bullets that will give us the best overall performance for most of the scenarios we think may occur. When it comes to SD tho, I'd rather error on the side of penetration than expansion. I'm responsible for all of the bullets that leave my barrel, and I understand the consequences. If there are innocent bystanders in the way or behind the BG, odds are, I ain't gonna shoot.

I had this problem when I hunted deer with a .357 Magnum. A shot thru the rib cage was no problem, but a shot involving a more "meaty" area resulted in a lack of penetration. I solved it by going to the .45 Colt. It don't run as fast, but darn near nothing stops that bullet.

Don