Pelvic shot?

[LordTio3]

The "hip bone" is something of an unscientific descriptor used to describe the iliac blade or the lateral aspect of the proximal end of the femur.

"Hip", as I used it was meant to refer to a general anatomical region, not a particular skeletal structure. No such thing as a "hip bone" as you pointed out.

If the round is large or fast enough to shatter the pelvis or break its structural integrity, then the person can physically not stand or walk/run. If it doesn't shatter it, and simply punctures it or ricochets off of it thus transversing the pelvic region, the wound has probable chance to be painful enough to prevent standing or movement.

This was the key phrase that I've been operating under. Considering ballistics here, there are quite a few rounds with the energy to accomplish this task when you include rifles, pistols, and rocket-propelled grenades. When speaking on handgun rounds; this being a handgun forum and all, you could be speaking of a .22lr or a .44mag: which is where understanding and arguing the philosophy, or metaphysics (physics and biology are implied), of the situation really comes to the forefront. You don't want to attempt a structurally or functionally disabling shot with a round that doesn't have the capacity to accomplish the intended task: Obviously.

But speaking from experience of an avulsion fracture on my left pelvis during my teen years, even when not structurally disabling, a pelvic wound can still be functionally incapacitory, as I noted above. The majority of your bodily weight resides above your waistline. Any other limb wound isn't nearly as debilitating. Even a leg wound can be helped by "taking your weight off of it". Not a solution, but an assisted state no less. If you're left hip has been fractured, even with all of your weight on your right leg, your upper body is still bearing down on your pelvis, exacerbated by the pelvic rotation required to shift weight to one leg and move. It is incredibly painful. Even if one could move, they won't be moving quickly. And they truly won't get very far.

So, in conclusion, you are still better off shooting COM and will almost certainly end most any encounter more effectively with that tactic. This is really nothing more than a situational tactic, though an effective one if employed efficiently. Unless you're a marksman with a .308 rifle, I'd tend to leave it alone. The training required to be able to employ it effectively and the likelihood of you having to use those skills rate quite low on the Scale of Cost-Benefit Ratio.

~LT

 

[Webleymkv]

The pelvic shot is usually considered to be part of a failure to stop drill. If and only if COM shots are ineffective should a pelvic shot be attempted. Some prefer pelvic shots to headshots because the pelvis represents a somewhat larger and easier to hit target than the head does. A pelvic shot should not be counted on to incapacitate an attacker. It is mainly useful to slow the attacker enough to give the defender more time to either retreat or take a more carefully aimed shot.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

OK, let's look at this scenario. We have fired shots to COM and they were not effective. What are the reasons these shots might not have been effective?

1. Despite our best intentions, the shots missed the target entirely.
2. The shots hit COM; but failed to strike vital organs.
3. The shots hit COM and struck non-CNS organs; but the target has not yet suffered enough blood loss to cease threatening activities.
4. The target is wearing body armor and shots did not penetrate that armor.

So in which of these scenarios is switching to the pelvis the best option?

My own analysis goes like this:

1. If you are missing COM shots, then shifting to the head or pelvis is likely going to be an even less successful strategy.

2. The upper thoracic cavity has the spine, heart, lungs, major arteries and veins, etc. The head has the brain and spine; but it is well-armored, more mobile and the part that is actually vital is relatively small in proportion to the thoracic cavity. The pelvis has fewer vital areas; and they are less vital than those in the upper thoracic. There is also almost no chance of hitting the CNS.

3. It seems in this situation the best strategy is to retreat or take cover and wait (assuming you know you made this kind of hit). A pelvic shot that performs as described may limit the target's mobility so you can do this; but it is unlikely to speed up the process significantly. So if immediately stopping the attack is necessary, you've got to hit the CNS.

4. OK, the upper thoracic is armored. So our choices are now:
A) Shoot until the armor is breached
B) Switch to the head (better chances of stopping fight; but hardest target to hit)
C) Switch to pelvis, not much here that will cause an immediate physiological stop; but less mobile than the head.

If the pelvic shot only works with rounds that are "large or fast enough to shatter the pelvis or break its structural integrity", it seems to me that either option A is viable or that the presence of body armor is fairly obvious even before the shooting starts.

Anybody else have a different take on 1-4?

 

[Nnobby45]

What ever happened to shooting to center of mass......

Nothing.

It's not pelvis vs. center mass, or vs. central nervous system. It's pelvis as an option than may have to be used under some circumstances.

The pelvis area has a large concentration of major blood vessels, lower spine, and so forth.

Kind of interesting that we have so many medically qualified people who can elaborate on whether a bullet will "shatter" or just "punch a hole".

Maybe someone should elaborate on the likelyhood of bone or bullet fragments rupturing a major blood vessel.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Deaf Smith]

With such a round as a 30/30 or a 12 gauge, yea the pelvic shot should work.

.38? 9mm? .22? I dunno. It would be a gamble.

Deaf

 

[Webleymkv]

1. If you are missing COM shots, then shifting to the head or pelvis is likely going to be an even less successful strategy.

Agree completely

2. The upper thoracic cavity has the spine, heart, lungs, major arteries and veins, etc. The head has the brain and spine; but it is well-armored, more mobile and the part that is actually vital is relatively small in proportion to the thoracic cavity. The pelvis has fewer vital areas; and they are less vital than those in the upper thoracic. There is also almost no chance of hitting the CNS.

3. It seems in this situation the best strategy is to retreat or take cover and wait (assuming you know you made this kind of hit). A pelvic shot that performs as described may limit the target's mobility so you can do this; but it is unlikely to speed up the process significantly. So if immediately stopping the attack is necessary, you've got to hit the CNS.

The point of the pelvic shot is not really to immediately incapacitate the target as it is unlikely to do that any better than a COM shot. The point is more to immobilize or at least limit the mobility of the target so that you can wait for the COM shot to take effect, retreat, or take a more precisely aimed shot. Basically, the pelvic shot is an attempt to buy some time that works best against a target that is not armed with a projectile weapon.

4. OK, the upper thoracic is armored. So our choices are now:
A) Shoot until the armor is breached
B) Switch to the head (better chances of stopping fight; but hardest target to hit)
C) Switch to pelvis, not much here that will cause an immediate physiological stop; but less mobile than the head.

Pretty much. If the target can be crippled through a pelvic shot, the shooter might have more time to take other action like retreat or attempt a head shot.

Really, a pelvic shot is a last resort. I agree that for the best result, a pelvic shot should be attempted with a relatively heavy and fast bullet like a .357 Magnum or 10mm Auto and even then it's a gamble at best. However, the pelvic shot can be a viable tactic under the right circumstances and it should not be summarily dismissed.

 

[brickeyee]

Your day has gone from just bad (involved in a gun fight) to REALLY bad (opponent has body armor).

It is a 'when the other stuff has not worked' fall back.

 

[Hook686]

In football I was taught to focus on the running backs hips ... he can juke with head, arms and legs, but where his hips are is where he is. I think the same applies to a moving, dancing bad guy trying to attack you. In this type scenario I think a pelvis shot might be my first choice. Slowing him down can be almost as good as stopping him, and to me that is the goal ... stop the threat.

 

[TylerD45ACP]

COM

Aim COM if you are forced to fire upon a threat. Fire two rounds into the COM of the target. If that fails to stop the threat, put one in the Cerebellum. I would have one method and stick to it. So if the situation does happen your not wasting precious time thinking about whether to give him the pelvic shot or COM. Multiple threats deliver one shot to the COM each as fast as possible then deal with them if they are a continuing threat. To me it doesn't make sense to shoot anywhere other than the area I have the best chance of landing a solid stopping hit. The pelvic shot may "immobilize" him but what if he starts shooting from the ground because the shot didn't stop him. You want the threat stopped as fast as possible. That comes from COM shots and a follow up headshot if necessary. Thats just my opinion.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The cerebellum is in the back of the head. If are facing the opponent, you have to shoot through stuff to get there and it isn't the biggest target.
Also, you have zapped through the brain stem - which probably does it for you.

Sorry to be techy. It's on the next test.

 

[TylerD45ACP]

No thats cool man. By aiming for the Cerebellum I don't mean like the little spot on the back of the head from the side or something. I meant more along the lines of getting a solid head shot through the center of the face or up around brows which may hit the Cerebellum. Any headshot should be sufficient as long as its a solid hit in a good spot. I just mention the Cerebellum because thats the instant shut down spot, hit in other parts of the brain people can still twitch, rarely. Don't worry bout getting techy I love the technical part of analyizing this.

 

[mygila]

Gents,
Pelvic shot? Worked on me. As I type I sit on a LRN 158 38cal. Went in the front and stopped between my hip and tailbone. Cut the H out of my lower intestines. Like 6 inches of the decinding colon gone and 24" inches of the small intestines roddled. I was knocked down rolling to my right side on the floor of my living room. Dope addicts in the house. My going down gave the BG time exit the front door. I got up walked out the back to my car where my wife drove to the hospital. I had an 30-06 in my hands and didn't one that was going out a front window. Met the shooter at a blind corner. Thought the one going out the window was kid from the back. He was actually 41 the police said when was caught three days later. Now, considering all the operations and a clostomy for 6 weeks. GET IN MY HOUSE NOW YOUR DEAD. Mygila

 

[TylerD45ACP]

Ouch (Im Sorry)

Sorry you had to deal with all that because of a couple of drug addicts, they seem to polute the streets even more now. I hope you are ok and made a full recovery, but you made a great point. You were able to walk afterwards and you were not stopped by any means, that says something about your ability to handle pain as well. So yea go for the chest and head shots, put the threat down for good. Hopefully nothing like that will ever happen to you again.

 

[Don P]

Then why do they teach 2-COM 1-head.

 

[TylerD45ACP]

Because, it is 2 -COM 1- DOME. That makes the most sense to me and I'm going to stick with that.

 

[bds32]

I think the pelvic girdle shot is just another option and shouldn't be discounted. We use it but typically for failure to stop after torso shots not working. There has been some discussion here about not making pelvic shots for various reasons. Some have pointed out the fact that it doesn't stop the opponent from shooting back. I agree with that. I also know that not all bad guys are armed with guns. Some of them bring knives, big sticks, beer bottles, or great big muscles to the fight. You may have done just about all you can do to retreat or to create distance. The pelvic girdle shot might be an option. Its worth some thought and research to determine if it is a viable tool. Worst case scenario, it might mean the difference between a murder conviction or an agg assault conviction if some grand jury, prosecutor, and jury think the use of force was unjustified against an unarmed attacker even though you believed it was.

 

[ClydeFrog]

Pelvic or lower torso area shots, deadly force incidents...

The topic comes up often on firearms boards & forums.
I have wrote about how the NYPD surgeon suggested aiming for the lower torso to the late Jim Cirello(check correct spelling), a highly respected NYPD officer & FLETC instructor; www.fletc.gov .
It makes a lot of sense to aim for the lower torso but with handgun calibers, there is NO absolute way that 1 or 2 rounds will ALWAYS drop a violent felon or be able to end the critical incident. Handgun calibers, even the .45acp or big .44magnum are not going to end shoot-outs with 1 round 100% of the time. The large size may help but there is no way of knowing exactly how or where a fired round will act in a bad guy/gal's body.

 

[TylerD45ACP]

^+1 The human body is an incredible machine that people do not give enough credit. Our heart beats average of 2 billion times in your life, NO man made pump can even come close. It is the strongest muscle in the body. You could hit someome 4 times in the torso with a 45 and they could just keep coming at you, sometimes not knowing their shot if their that determined. Or the person could drop immediatley and be dead before they hit the ground. After the human heart is destroyed there is enough blood in your body to still carry out 10-15 seconds of voluntary movment, thats a lot of time. There is no way of telling how different people will react physiologically and psychologically so prepare yourself for the most determined attacker.