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+P in S&W model 36?
- Thread starter math teacher
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Originally posted by roaddog28
The issue is that even though 18,000psi is below the SAAMI max for +P, it is still above the 17,000psi max for standard pressure. It is no secret that most ammo makers do not load their ammunition right up to the ragged edge of maximum pressure in order to maintain a safety margin. Factors such as temperature, altitude, and barometric pressure can all effect the peak pressure of a given cartridge and the ammo makers want to ensure that their ammunition will not be overpressure under any reasonable circumstances. What you have to understand is that the +P designation does not mean, nor was it ever meant to mean, that ammunition carrying that label is loaded to a specific peak pressure. Instead, what it means is that the ammunition is loaded to a pressure greater than maximum standard pressure but not above a predetermined limit, so in the case of .38 Special that means more than 17,000psi but not more than 20,000psi.
As to which revolvers can and cannot handle +P ammunition, I think that the manufacturer's reccommendations are a good place to start. S&W reccommends that +P ammunition only be used in K-Frame revolvers with model numbers (1958 and later) and J-Frames built on the newer Magnum J-Frame (1999 and later). Now, most of us realize that some guns older than these reccommendations can handle limited use of +P ammunition (I previously stated that I actually carry +P ammo in my 1970's vintage M36), but it is important to make note of the qualifiers in that statement. I, personally, would be comfortable shooting limited amounts of +P in an all steel J-Frame or an all steel K-Frame made after WWII. I would not shoot +P ammunition in any aluminum-frame revolver not specifically rated for it nor any revolver made before WWII.
I can comfortably make those statements with those qualifiers because, if someone misunderstands or chooses to ignore thos qualifiers, I am not the one they'll be sending their gun to demanding that it be fixed for free. S&W, on the other hand, has to deal with all sorts of people not all of whom are particularly bright. Because of this, S&W will only officially OK the use of +P in guns that can withstand a nearly unlimited diet of it and which can be easily distinguished from older, weaker models.
You're correct that many of the older guns, though not officially rated for it, can handle the occasional use of +P and that someone who exercises common sense can use +P in such a gun without significantly shortening its life. Unfortunately, common sense is not as common as the name implies. By stating that +P ammunition of today is nothing more than standard pressure ammunition of yesteryear, many people are likely to assume that today's +P ammunition is what their old gun was designed for and that it should be used all the time. According to S&W, older .38 Special revolvers were designed for ammunition generating no more than 17,000psi. While they're not likely to blow up the first time you drop the hammer on a round that generates 18,000psi, shooting that ammunition all the time will wear them out prematurely.
The best analogy I can think of is revving the engine on a car. Very few engines will blow up from being red lined once or twice, but keeping it at or near redline the whole time you're driving day-in and day-out is going to drastically reduce the life of your engine. Very few things in this world, and certainly not guns or cars, are meant to be pushed to their limits 100% of the time.
You're correct, major ammunition makers intentionally load their ammunition below the pressure limit to ensure that it will be safe in any gun that could be reasonably thought to be safe to fire and most guns are built to withstand at least a few rounds of ammunition well above their cartridge's pressure limit (proof loads are well above the pressure of even +P ammo). However, shooting a steady diet of what is essentially overpressure ammunition for a particular gun will fairly quickly wear it to the point of being unsafe.
As to your experience with your Pre-M10, that's really a pretty vauge statement. First of all, as I noted in my previous post, velocity and peak pressure do not necessarily correlate. For all we know, the loading you're shooting may very well be delivering those velocities without peaking above 17,000psi (Buffalo Bore's standard pressure .38 Special loadings produce similar velocities without going over 17,000psi). Secondly, a Pre-M10 could be made any time between 1899 and 1957. I think most would agree that shooting +P ammo in a M&P made in 1955 is quite a different thing than shooting it in a M&P made in 1905. As with so many other things, the devil is in the details.
Originally posted by drail
If I were limited to non-expanding bullets, I wouldn't bother with +P and would instead simply load up with 148gr HBWC and be done with it. However, among hollowpoint loadings, the vast majority of standard pressure .38 Special loadings, to be blunt, stink. Nearly all of the standard pressure .38 Spl loadings use light-for-caliber bullets of very dated design which either don't expand reliably or underpenetrate. The only standard pressure .38 Spl hollowpoint loadings that I would trust are Hornady 110gr Critical Defense, which is still marginal in terms of penetration, or Buffalo Bore's offering which are both expensive and must be ordered.
While it is certainly true that people were being shot and killed with .38 Specials long before Magnums, +P, or even hollowpoints, there were a lot of cases in which the .38 Spl performed pretty dismally too. For example, officers of the NYPD used to refer to their standard-pressure .38 Spl 158gr LRN service load as the "widow maker" due to the number of officers that were killed or wounded because that loading failed to stop who they shot with it. Advances in bullet technology have made nearly every caliber to which they've been applied more effective (exceptions being small cartridges like .25 and .32 Auto) and .38 Special is no exception. However, nearly all the .38 Special ammunition loaded with the newer and better bullets is also +P. If I could find factory standard pressure .38 Spl ammunition loaded with Remington Golden Saber, Winchester PDX1, Federal HST, Speer Short Barrel Gold Dot, or even good old fashioned LSWCHP bullets I might consider it, but no factory standard pressure ammo is avaialable that uses those bullets.
As to upgrading one's gun rather than push it too hard, I actually did just that. Prior to owning my M36, my pocket revolver was a 1950's vintage Colt Cobra. One of the reasons that I sold that gun was because I was dissatisfied with the performance of most standard pressure .38 Spl ammo but, due to the gun's aluminum frame, did not feel comfortable shooting +P in it. My all-steel M36, however, is better suited to +P ammo than the older Colt was and thus better suits my needs. If I felt the need to shoot a steady diet of +P ammo or to use +P+ or Magnum ammunition, I will either use one of my larger K or N-Frame revolvers or trade the M36 off for a Magnum J-Frame like the current M60, 640, or 649. However, for a pocket gun I'm satisfied with regular use of standard pressure .38's and carry/occasional practice with +P, so I think I'll be keeping my M36 for the forseeable future.
The reason I put the link in is to provide information to members that are worried about shooting +P 38 special ammo in modern all steel revolvers. You are right about the SAAMI pressure for a 38 +P. But my point is none of the factory ammo made now a days exceeds the 20,000 PSI. In my experience the +P rounds I shoot would not exceed 18,000 PSI.
The issue is that even though 18,000psi is below the SAAMI max for +P, it is still above the 17,000psi max for standard pressure. It is no secret that most ammo makers do not load their ammunition right up to the ragged edge of maximum pressure in order to maintain a safety margin. Factors such as temperature, altitude, and barometric pressure can all effect the peak pressure of a given cartridge and the ammo makers want to ensure that their ammunition will not be overpressure under any reasonable circumstances. What you have to understand is that the +P designation does not mean, nor was it ever meant to mean, that ammunition carrying that label is loaded to a specific peak pressure. Instead, what it means is that the ammunition is loaded to a pressure greater than maximum standard pressure but not above a predetermined limit, so in the case of .38 Special that means more than 17,000psi but not more than 20,000psi.
As to which revolvers can and cannot handle +P ammunition, I think that the manufacturer's reccommendations are a good place to start. S&W reccommends that +P ammunition only be used in K-Frame revolvers with model numbers (1958 and later) and J-Frames built on the newer Magnum J-Frame (1999 and later). Now, most of us realize that some guns older than these reccommendations can handle limited use of +P ammunition (I previously stated that I actually carry +P ammo in my 1970's vintage M36), but it is important to make note of the qualifiers in that statement. I, personally, would be comfortable shooting limited amounts of +P in an all steel J-Frame or an all steel K-Frame made after WWII. I would not shoot +P ammunition in any aluminum-frame revolver not specifically rated for it nor any revolver made before WWII.
I can comfortably make those statements with those qualifiers because, if someone misunderstands or chooses to ignore thos qualifiers, I am not the one they'll be sending their gun to demanding that it be fixed for free. S&W, on the other hand, has to deal with all sorts of people not all of whom are particularly bright. Because of this, S&W will only officially OK the use of +P in guns that can withstand a nearly unlimited diet of it and which can be easily distinguished from older, weaker models.
I see a lot posts about people concerns shooting todays +P in any model number S&W 38 special steel revolver. Of course the revolver needs to be in good condition. I have seen questions from people about shooting 38 +P in 357 magnum revolvers. People need to use some common sense. Ammo makers will not make ammo that will blow up revolvers.
You're correct that many of the older guns, though not officially rated for it, can handle the occasional use of +P and that someone who exercises common sense can use +P in such a gun without significantly shortening its life. Unfortunately, common sense is not as common as the name implies. By stating that +P ammunition of today is nothing more than standard pressure ammunition of yesteryear, many people are likely to assume that today's +P ammunition is what their old gun was designed for and that it should be used all the time. According to S&W, older .38 Special revolvers were designed for ammunition generating no more than 17,000psi. While they're not likely to blow up the first time you drop the hammer on a round that generates 18,000psi, shooting that ammunition all the time will wear them out prematurely.
The best analogy I can think of is revving the engine on a car. Very few engines will blow up from being red lined once or twice, but keeping it at or near redline the whole time you're driving day-in and day-out is going to drastically reduce the life of your engine. Very few things in this world, and certainly not guns or cars, are meant to be pushed to their limits 100% of the time.
Ammo makers will not make ammo that will blow up revolvers. Plus if you look at the SAAMI specs for standard 38 special I doubt ammo makers today would make ammo that would come close to exceeding that pressure. I have a M&P pre-10 4 inch that I shoot 158 gr ammo running in the 800 to 900 fps range. After many years it has not blown up and still locks up tight.
You're correct, major ammunition makers intentionally load their ammunition below the pressure limit to ensure that it will be safe in any gun that could be reasonably thought to be safe to fire and most guns are built to withstand at least a few rounds of ammunition well above their cartridge's pressure limit (proof loads are well above the pressure of even +P ammo). However, shooting a steady diet of what is essentially overpressure ammunition for a particular gun will fairly quickly wear it to the point of being unsafe.
As to your experience with your Pre-M10, that's really a pretty vauge statement. First of all, as I noted in my previous post, velocity and peak pressure do not necessarily correlate. For all we know, the loading you're shooting may very well be delivering those velocities without peaking above 17,000psi (Buffalo Bore's standard pressure .38 Special loadings produce similar velocities without going over 17,000psi). Secondly, a Pre-M10 could be made any time between 1899 and 1957. I think most would agree that shooting +P ammo in a M&P made in 1955 is quite a different thing than shooting it in a M&P made in 1905. As with so many other things, the devil is in the details.
Originally posted by drail
I just cannot understand why everyone seems to think they "need" to go to a hotter load (perceived or otherwise) in these small light guns. If a standard load isn't enough for you then trade up to a larger heavier gun and deal with carrying the extra weight. A standard .38 Spl. cartridge managed to kill a lot of people before we had any Magnum or +P loads. A good hit is a good hit. A marginal hit is still a marginal hit regardless of the power level of the cartridge.
If I were limited to non-expanding bullets, I wouldn't bother with +P and would instead simply load up with 148gr HBWC and be done with it. However, among hollowpoint loadings, the vast majority of standard pressure .38 Special loadings, to be blunt, stink. Nearly all of the standard pressure .38 Spl loadings use light-for-caliber bullets of very dated design which either don't expand reliably or underpenetrate. The only standard pressure .38 Spl hollowpoint loadings that I would trust are Hornady 110gr Critical Defense, which is still marginal in terms of penetration, or Buffalo Bore's offering which are both expensive and must be ordered.
While it is certainly true that people were being shot and killed with .38 Specials long before Magnums, +P, or even hollowpoints, there were a lot of cases in which the .38 Spl performed pretty dismally too. For example, officers of the NYPD used to refer to their standard-pressure .38 Spl 158gr LRN service load as the "widow maker" due to the number of officers that were killed or wounded because that loading failed to stop who they shot with it. Advances in bullet technology have made nearly every caliber to which they've been applied more effective (exceptions being small cartridges like .25 and .32 Auto) and .38 Special is no exception. However, nearly all the .38 Special ammunition loaded with the newer and better bullets is also +P. If I could find factory standard pressure .38 Spl ammunition loaded with Remington Golden Saber, Winchester PDX1, Federal HST, Speer Short Barrel Gold Dot, or even good old fashioned LSWCHP bullets I might consider it, but no factory standard pressure ammo is avaialable that uses those bullets.
As to upgrading one's gun rather than push it too hard, I actually did just that. Prior to owning my M36, my pocket revolver was a 1950's vintage Colt Cobra. One of the reasons that I sold that gun was because I was dissatisfied with the performance of most standard pressure .38 Spl ammo but, due to the gun's aluminum frame, did not feel comfortable shooting +P in it. My all-steel M36, however, is better suited to +P ammo than the older Colt was and thus better suits my needs. If I felt the need to shoot a steady diet of +P ammo or to use +P+ or Magnum ammunition, I will either use one of my larger K or N-Frame revolvers or trade the M36 off for a Magnum J-Frame like the current M60, 640, or 649. However, for a pocket gun I'm satisfied with regular use of standard pressure .38's and carry/occasional practice with +P, so I think I'll be keeping my M36 for the forseeable future.
I own numerous snubs but i have grown fond of the new Bodyguard which is +P rated. I still prefer the standard velocity ammo and use the Hornady Critical defense round. The critical defense 110 will penetrate 12 inches and sometimes more and expand. It may not expand to 60 caliber but it does expand. I want a blend of expansion without loss of penetration with great revolver control and accuracy. I installled a big dot on my bodyguard and it shoots on the money. The big Dot is a nice sight by the way and I highly recommend them if you own a new bodyguard. Will the +p at 50 feet per second do more, maybe or maybe not if it expands more and looses penetration, it's a loss for me I prefer the penetration. I like the critical defense round because it has a good balance of power, penetration , expansion and accuracy with quick recovery time. I wish is were a bit heavier but I see it as a win for standard velocity ammunition.