+P in S&W model 36?

math teacher

New member
I inherited a Smith and Wesson model 36 38 Special in near new condition from my father-in-law. Would it be safe to use +P loads in it for defensive purpose only? I am aware that even if I can use it, a steady diet would do it no good.
 

Webleymkv

New member
S&W does not rate J-Frames made before 1999 for +P ammunition, but pre-1999 J-Frames with steel frames (your M36 is an all-steel revolver) can fire limited amounts of +P ammunition safely.

In my personal M36 no-dash (1970's vintage) I limit my use of +P ammunition to carry and 50-100 rounds per year to stay familiar with the recoil. +P ammunition should not be used at all in a pre-1999 Airweight J-Frame (Models 37, 38, and 42) as it may stretch or crack the aluminum frame.
 

math teacher

New member
Thank you Webleymkv. Yes it is a steel frame and I have no intention of shooting a bunch of +P through it, but if I need to use it, it would be nice to know that I have a little more punch.
 

guardjim

New member
I have a model 36 I bought new in 1969. It is not rated for +P and from what I understand S&W will not say to use +P but I think that is probably for liability reasons. To my knowledge +P did not exist then so there was no reason to rate for this load.
After +P became available, the agencies I worked for issued them for the S&W 38 spl. rated model 10 that my department carried and no one had a problem with them, even though we put thousands downrange in qualifications. I have always carried +P in my 36 but for practice I use standard pressure .38 and think that you will not have a problem with +P if your revolver is in good condition. Shoot some +P to familiarize yourself with the recoil but mainly practice withstandard loads.
 

PetahW

New member
FWIW, the S&W Model 10 is a larger 6-shot K-frame; the OP's Model 36 is a smaller 5-shot J-frame with accordingly different strength specs.

.
 

Webleymkv

New member
FWIW, the S&W Model 10 is a larger 6-shot K-frame; the OP's Model 36 is a smaller 5-shot J-frame with accordingly different strength specs.

This is correct. S&W says that all steel-frame K-Frame .38's made in 1958 or later (those with model numbers) are fine with +P ammunition. These would include the Models 10, 14, and 15. As a matter of fact, the only post-1958 K-Frames which should not be fired with +P ammo are the Model 12 Airweight and the extremely rare Model 13 Aircrewman (not to be confused with the M13 .357 Magnum, this gun was basically a M12 with an aluminum cylinder and is considered unsafe to fire with anything at all).
 

2damnold4this

New member
These days, we have a lot of good standard pressure ammo available. I've got an M&P made in the late forties/early fifties and I see no need to use +p in it. You might be happy using standard pressure ammo in your M36.
 

drail

Moderator
"+P" ammo is pure marketing drivel. It sells products that no one really needs and damages a lot of perfectly good handguns. :rolleyes:
 

Webleymkv

New member
"+P" ammo is pure marketing drivel. It sells products that no one really needs and damages a lot of perfectly good handguns.

With respect to .38 Special, I strongly disagree. When limited to a 17,000psi pressure ceiling, it is very difficult to drive a bullet heavy enough to penetrate adequately fast enough to expand reliably. This is why the majority of standard pressure .38 Special loading use light-for-caliber 110gr bullet (examples include Winchester Silvertip, Federal Hydra-Shok, and Remington Express SJHP) or very soft malleable lead with middle-weight 125gr bullets (Federal NyClad). While these bullets are fast enough and fragile enough to expand, they're too light and too malleable to penetrate 12" or more.

It is no coincidence that most of the best .38 Special hollowpoint loadings such as Remington's 158gr LSWCHP "FBI Load", Speer's 135gr Short Barrel Gold Dot, Cor-Bon's 110gr DPX, and Winchester's 130gr PDX1 are all +P loadings. The only standard pressure .38 Special loadings that I've ever found which can both expand reliably and even come close to meeting the FBI's 12" minimum penetration standard are Hornady 110gr Critical Defense and Buffalo Bore's hollowpoint offerings.
 

Skadoosh

New member
Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP +P is pretty much like the standard 38spl load from the 50's....

I personally shoot the standard pressure Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP in my Model 36 and they are pretty stout.
 

skoro

New member
math teacher said:
Would it be safe to use +P loads in it for defensive purpose only?

I also have a M36 and have shot maybe 35-40 rounds of +P through it with no ill effects. But I think that if I was going to use it as a defensive firearm, I keep it loaded with good std pressure rounds like the Federal Nyclad or one of the Buffalo Bore offerings.

But that's just me.
 

roaddog28

New member
To shoot +P or not. This debate goes on and on. Drail is correct. +P is marketing hype from the ammo makers. The standard pressure 158 gr 38 special LRN back before 1972 was running at 850 fps in most 4 inch barrels. Most +P 38 special rounds except for buffalo bore are running about the same out of a 4 inch barrel. Most +P rounds today are loaded to what standard pressure was back before 1972. Todays standard pressure round is running at 700 fps.
So to answer your question. Yes your model 36 will handle +P 38 specials. I have a model 36 no dash and I do shoot +P 38 for practice just in case I need them for self defense.
Here is a link that should explain the myth.
Howard
http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html
 

AKsRul.e

New member
This is one of those "personal" decisions. :)

If an alloy frame gun can take it I have no problem using
some occasionally in my STEEL J frames. ;)
 

Webleymkv

New member
Here is a link that should explain the myth.
Howard
http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.co...-saxonpig.html

That article misses the mark in several ways. Most obvious is that the author incorrectly cites SAAMI maximum pressure for .38 Special at 21,500psi. A cartridge loaded to that pressure would actually be a +P+ loading as SAAMI max for standard pressure .38 Special is 17,000psi and .38 Special +P is 20,000psi.

Secondly, the author assumes that, because a loading with a given bullet weight delivers higher velocity than another with the same bullet weight, that the pressure must automatically be higher. Pressure and velocity do not necessarily correlate directly with each other and it is entirely possible for one loading to produce both higher velocity and lower pressure than another. For proof of this, one need look no further than a reloading manual. If you look at the maximum loads with various powders for a given cartridge, bullet, and primer, you will find that some develop much higher velocities than others even though none of them exceed a certain pressure limit. What correlates much better with velocity is how long the peak pressure can be maintained. the way in which boutique ammo houses like Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Grizzly, and Garrett are able to deliver higher velocity without exceeding the maximum pressure is that they carefully select and blend powders with particular burn rates in order to sustain the peak pressure for as long as possible.

Finally, the author of that article relies only on advertised velocities for loadings of yesteryear to prove that they were higher pressure. As most of us know, it is not particularly uncommon for factory ammunition to fail to live up to its advertised velocity and this phenomenon is hardly a recent development. Actually, ammunition makers have been forced to become much more honest about their velocity figures over the years because chronographs are both better and more widely available than they were in years past. Today, anyone with a couple hundred extra dollars can easily buy a chronograph and see just how honest the manufacturers' velocity figures really are. The author cites advertised velocities from as far back as the 1920's, but unless he's actually chronographed vintage ammunition (he makes no claim that he has), then he really has no idea how fast they are beyond the manufacturers' word. Likewise, pressure testing equipment is much better today than it was in years past. One of the reasons that many of the loads listed in various reloading manuals have been reduced over the years is that newer, better pressure testing equipment exposed many of those old loadings as being much higher pressure than what they were originally thought to be. While S&W K-Frames and Colt D-Frames may have once thought to have been up to .38/44 and other high-pressure ammunition, those recommendations are long gone and have been replaced with much more sensible ones by the manufacturers of said guns.

The only possible way that it could be proven that today's +P ammunition is nothing more than the standard pressure of yesteryear would be to both chronograph and pressure test both current and vintage ammunition on modern equipment. Until someone does that and provides their findings, however, I'm going to classify the current +P=old standard pressure as and unwise, and potentially unsafe, speculation.
 

roaddog28

New member
Webleymkv,
The reason I put the link in is to provide information to members that are worried about shooting +P 38 special ammo in modern all steel revolvers. You are right about the SAAMI pressure for a 38 +P. But my point is none of the factory ammo made now a days exceeds the 20,000 PSI. In my experience the +P rounds I shoot would not exceed 18,000 PSI. I see a lot posts about people concerns shooting todays +P in any model number S&W 38 special steel revolver. Of course the revolver needs to be in good condition. I have seen questions from people about shooting 38 +P in 357 magnum revolvers. People need to use some common sense. Ammo makers will not make ammo that will blow up revolvers. Plus if you look at the SAAMI specs for standard 38 special I doubt ammo makers today would make ammo that would come close to exceeding that pressure. I have a M&P pre-10 4 inch that I shoot 158 gr ammo running in the 800 to 900 fps range. After many years it has not blown up and still locks up tight.
Like I said, this +P thing is way overblown.
Howard
 

drail

Moderator
I just cannot understand why everyone seems to think they "need" to go to a hotter load (perceived or otherwise) in these small light guns. If a standard load isn't enough for you then trade up to a larger heavier gun and deal with carrying the extra weight. A standard .38 Spl. cartridge managed to kill a lot of people before we had any Magnum or +P loads. A good hit is a good hit. A marginal hit is still a marginal hit regardless of the power level of the cartridge.
 
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