Overstuffed prisons leave convicted armed robbers at large

BillCA

New member
My guess -- and it's only a guess because we do not have all of the facts in this case (yet) -- is that the defendant was charged separately for having a gun for each sale of the marijuana, thus racking up the extra years. It is also my guess that he has some kind of "prior history" that showed he wasn't, say, a college student looking for quick cash to pay his tuition and this was his first-ever contact with the legal system.

This is one of the problems we, a society, face when dealing with criminals. If we push legislators into creating mandatory sentencing it may result in unjust punishment in some cases. If we leave some flexibility for judges to be "just", then some sentences won't be enough to satisfy everyone.

The fact is that pot is less dangerous than tobacco and it isn't some gateway drug that some people accuse it of being.

It's potentially less dangerous that tobacco, however I will disagree about the gateway-drug issue. If you want to discuss this further, PM me and we'll have a good discussion. :cool:
 

invention_45

New member
As to the "gateway drug" issue, I prefer to discuss it right here.

Regarding the "bar scene" and "club scene", been there, and done that.

How and where do you imagine most users come upon drugs of any sort for the first time? With their friends, and in a club or bar. Now, by "club" or "bar" I'm not referring to the Kiwanis club or the raw bar. I'm talking about the licensed ALCOHOL bar.

Wouldn't you say that qualifies alcohol as the primary "gateway drug"?

Save your breath if you don't classify alcohol as a drug.
 

ATW525

New member
My guess -- and it's only a guess because we do not have all of the facts in this case (yet) -- is that the defendant was charged separately for having a gun for each sale of the marijuana, thus racking up the extra years.

That is exactly what happened in this case. He was charged with one count for having a glock in the console of his car during the first drug buy, a second count for lifting up his pants leg and showing the informant the glock during the second buy and the third count stems from three guns found at his residence along with $18,040 in cash (in a briefcase with one of the guns), three pounds of marijuana and a couple opiate suckers. One of the handguns found at his house was also confirmed as stolen.

The first charge was good for 5 years and the others were good for 25 years each. He had no major criminal history prior to this.
 

SIGSHR

New member
Pot less dangerous than tobacco? I don't know of any tobacco smokers who
have had or caused accidents while being "under the influence".
 

Marko Kloos

New member
Careful with that argument. Alcohol kills more people than all illegal drugs combined by a very wide margin, and the sale and consumption of booze is perfectly legal. (Booze prohibition was about as successful as drug prohibition is now, you see. Fortunately, our great-grandparents had the smarts to see that Prohibition was causing more harm than good. If only this generation was as smart...)
 

invention_45

New member
Pot less dangerous than tobacco? I don't know of any tobacco smokers who
have had or caused accidents while being "under the influence".

Ever been in front of a swerving, tailgating vehicle with no apparent driver and then suddenly have a driver pop up with a lighter lighting a cigarette? Looks like severe withdrawl symptoms to me.

Edit: The original poster said "potentially less dangerous", not "less dangerous". Probably to err on the safe side. I stick with "less dangerous period".
 
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mvpel

New member
Ever been in front of a swerving, tailgating vehicle with no apparent driver and then suddenly have a driver pop up with a lighter lighting a cigarette? Looks like severe withdrawl symptoms to me.
Ever been driving 70mph in front of a car driving the wrong way on a freeway? I have, and it ain't no fun. It probably took two years off my life. I don't think that's a justification for banning all booze, though.
 

BillCA

New member
ATW525 said:
That is exactly what happened in this case. He was charged with one count for having a glock in the console of his car during the first drug buy, a second count for lifting up his pants leg and showing the informant the glock during the second buy and the third count stems from three guns found at his residence along with $18,040 in cash (in a briefcase with one of the guns), three pounds of marijuana and a couple opiate suckers. One of the handguns found at his house was also confirmed as stolen.

The first charge was good for 5 years and the others were good for 25 years each. He had no major criminal history prior to this.

Well, this does make the situation a little different. He's dealing pot big time, has at least three guns, one of which is stolen, has harder drugs on hand (opiates).

Let's see... possession with intent for sale - 3 counts
Possession of controlled substance (opiate suckers)
Possession of stolen property
Possession of a handgun(s) during drug sale.
Monetary evidence suggests he's selling a considerable amount of drugs (note: $18,000 is more than some folks bring home in 4 months)

I'd say he jumped in with both feet. This isn't a case of a college student or a struggling waitress to supplement their income with a few hundred a month in pot sales to friends and acquaintences.
 
Bank Robbers and Rapists:
What I don't understand is this. How come we don't charge bank robbers for each individual bill they steal? Why aren't rapists charged for each penetration of a given victim?

In fact, let's extend the practice to misdemeanors. If you get caught doing 65 in a 50MPH zone, why shouldn't you get charged with 15 counts of speeding? After all, you had to hit 51-64 in order to get to 65, right? I mean, if we work it just right, we can make Felons of just about everyone in short order. Then we'd know that the laws are succeeding.
Rich
 

BillCA

New member
Ever been in front of a swerving, tailgating vehicle with no apparent driver and then suddenly have a driver pop up with a lighter lighting a cigarette? Looks like severe withdrawl symptoms to me.

More likely just a case of poor decision making as opposed to withdrawl symptoms. :D

invention_45 said:
How and where do you imagine most users come upon drugs of any sort for the first time? With their friends, and in a club or bar. Now, by "club" or "bar" I'm not referring to the Kiwanis club or the raw bar. I'm talking about the licensed ALCOHOL bar.

Wouldn't you say that qualifies alcohol as the primary "gateway drug"?

I disagree - with both the assertion that "most users" start using drugs in a bar and/or that alcohol is thus the primary gateway drug.

Most users of pot have their first exposure/use of the drug before their 18th birthday (NIJ). This would tend to discount the idea of "most" pot smokers using a bar as a local to obtain their first hit. I'll agree that a person's "friends" are most likely to be their first source for using pot. I don't recall the actual stats, but I recall reading a government report that showed the percentage of pot users who became regular users of harder drugs (meth, crack, herion, etc.) has been falling since the 80's, but it is still over 25%. More telling, I think, is that over 50% of pot users have used other drugs two or more times.

As drugs go, I think marijuana is pretty innocuous in its effects, similar to the stupidity one observes when people drink alcohol. If pot were legal I'd probably do the same thing I do for guests who drink too much -- get them a cab or let 'em sleep it off. But I tend to avoid people who drink too much or smoke pot frequently, mostly because I find their behavior when using these drugs to be annoying.

I think the most telling question (which applies to drugs or alcohol) is - would you let a 15 year old boy get your 13 year old daughter high at an unsupervised party?


p.s. as I write this, Nicole Richie's DUI booking sheet lists her as 5'1" tall and only 85-lbs. She admitted to smoking pot and taking Vicoden and drinking. Plus she was driving the wrong way on the freeway whilst talking on the cell phone. Well, that just about covers all the bases! :D
 

mvpel

New member
He was caught with a pound of the wrong kind of dried plant - if it were another kind of dried plant, he could sell it over the internet:



Prices range from $14 to $40 a pound.

He was also caught with the wrong kind of plant extract...

200.jpg


The $18,000 in cash (what, do you think he's going to accept personal checks and credit cards?), more than some people make in four months, is just a symptom of the drug war. Instead of $14 a pound, prohibition has driven the cost of the dried leaves and buds of a fast-growing plant up to $1,600 a pound or more.

Possession of stolen property, and perhaps also the theft of the firearm itself, is worth some prison time, but not 55 years.
 

invention_45

New member
More likely just a case of poor decision making as opposed to withdrawl symptoms.

Ah, decisions, decisions. Stay out of a high-speed accident? Or find that lighter and stop the withdrawl symptoms?

Most users of pot have their first exposure/use of the drug before their 18th birthday (NIJ). This would tend to discount the idea of "most" pot smokers using a bar as a local to obtain their first hit. I'll agree that a person's "friends" are most likely to be their first source for using pot.

Maybe I should have been more clear. I wasn't suggesting alcohol, by way of bars, leads to the first use of pot. I was suggesting that attending a bar, ostensibly for the consumption of alcolhol, exposes one to great availability of harder drugs and is thereby a gateway.

For example, in its heyday, I suspect that if you went to Studio 54, again, ostensibly for alcohol because it was a licensed bar, you didn't have to bring your own cocaine if that's what you really wanted.

I'd be curious about the % of alcohol users who go on to use hard drugs once or twice, or even the % of hard drug users who have used alcohol (bet it's 99.999%).

While I realize this little bit is anecdotal, I once knew (and got as far away from as fast as I could) a fellow who, when he wanted to tell all his family he had quit drinking, would use cocaine instead. When he got in trouble (because he is a mean drunk AND a mean coke user), he'd go right back to drinking. Wouldn't touch pot with a ten foot pole, and it wasn't because he disagreed with the concept of inhaling smoke being good for you (2 pack-a-day habit whether he was drinking or using coke).

What leads to what else is hype.
What is more dangerous is hype.

But the statisics describing causes of death aren't hype. You have to read quite a few lines down before you get to the first illegal drug, probably heroin. But you don't have to read very far down to find tobacco, and not much further to find alcohol.

Does this mean I'm itching to get my hands on some heroin? Not really, I don't have the time.

It does seem to indicate that the punishments for using the various substances or for selling them appears to be out of whack when held up against the damage done by them. Which means that the punishments must have some OTHER motivation behind them (rather than to save lives).

What might that motivation be? When I see something that doesn't fit right in the social world (as opposed to the scientific world) I try to follow the money to get to the bottom of why it doesn't fit. What could be more profitable than the ability to trump up charges against a very large class of people and confiscate their property leaving them little recourse?

What Rich seems to see and that I certainly see is that, even if you don't use drugs or want them, the result is a gradual erosion of constitutional rights in order to accomplish the objective stated above. The loss of rights makes it easier to lose rights in other areas, until finally it's happening in an area near you.

A claim that the constitution doesn't contain any right to use drugs misses the point. The constitution DOES contain the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. When rapists and attempted murderers are turned out of prison in 3-8 years to make room to replace them with merchants for minimum mandatory 10 or 20 years, you are being deprived of these three rights. You and I are being unjustly exposed to proven violent criminals for reasons based on nothing but hype.

It doesn't have anything to do with a "right to use drugs". It has to do with those 3 basic rights and the proper use of available facilities to try to ensure you of them, and the abuse of these facilities for something stupid.
 
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