Over-reacting? Don't think so. But made a mistake

supergas452M

Moderator
I am surprised at the planned power outage concept. Is this commonplace back east? Never in my life have I been aware of a "planned power outage". Must suck for those of you that have to deal with it. Come out west, we do things differently (better).;)
 

BobbyT

New member
Go out a little further west (well, further left I suppose) and you hit "rolling" blackouts. Those planned blackouts are just a way of controlling the failure they made of the mostly-government-run power system.

To the OP, he wasn't asking you why you wanted 3 loaded mags, he was asking why they all needed to be loaded (as opposed to already being loaded).
 

Chris_B

New member
Well, Chris, you opened this thread. It's your task to deal with the answers, comments and advice you may recieve without getting offended when it's not intended. I'm not especially interested in taking side here, but coming into this and reading through for the first time since about 30 minutes after you opened it, I have to say, you seem upset by Bill's post beyond what I would normally expect.

Hi Bud

This is called the "If somebody types a lot of words they are angry" internet myth, my friend :) I think maybe you expect me to be mad. But pardon me, if you read my words you will find that is not the case

How many smilies ( :) ) and statements such as, quote:

"This will be long, as you made many points. My replying to each is not a case of me "getting excited". It is just me taking the time to answer all the points you bring up"

and

"I know you are trying to help here :) "

would I need to make to convince you I'm not mad? The website will only allow six similies, by the way- I was given an error message about the twelve I used ;)

Bill made a very long list of points, and I took the time to address them. That does not mean I'm upset, angry, vindictive, or mad. What it means is I addressed the points he took the time to type up. There's a certain amount of courtesy involved with the time I invested replying to him. If I was mad, it would take much less time to type "F you" to him, would you agree? Have a great Memorial Day :)
 
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Chris_B

New member
I am surprised at the planned power outage concept. Is this commonplace back east? Never in my life have I been aware of a "planned power outage". Must suck for those of you that have to deal with it. Come out west, we do things differently (better).

I think this is the second one I've even heard of, the first I'd experienced. I loved how they said "may experience power interruptions". It was like clockwork- 12 midnight, bam- no electricity. And the torrential downpours we got that afternoon didn't help- I saw storm drain covers forced off by debris, and at once point I literally could not see the front of my car's hood while driving because of the solid wall of rain water!
 

Chris_B

New member
Really?? And what cases would those be? Can you cite specific examples?

I think you are repeating an urban legend.

Well, I'm not a lawyer and I did not feel I'd need to prep for debate...but I'm also not an astronaut, and I still can know what the composition of the moon is ;)

In a case like this, when all I have to do is have a few factory rounds lying around, why even chance it, urban legend or not? Just to prove a point to myself? It seems foolish to do that when there's no need to

There are many things here that are either illegal, or legal, with no lawful basis. Consider how the Police Chiefs here decide who gets a firearms permit, as if they have the authority to pick and chose who the constitution applies to. But try that argument with the Chief of Police! :D
 

Chris_B

New member
I lived in roxbury jackson sq.for 10 yrs

How did you stand it for that long???

Roxbury is better in many places today; but I still wouldn't want to live there! I'm pretty near Egleston Sq., and that's bad enough
 

FALPhil

New member
In a case like this, when all I have to do is have a few factory rounds lying around, why even chance it, urban legend or not? Just to prove a point to myself? It seems foolish to do that when there's no need to
Because it is not an issue.

The only case that ever comes up is the Harold Fish case, and it was not a contributing factor in the conviction. Read the transcript (I did).

Think about it guys. Deadly force is deadly force. By your logic, using a 45 ACP makes you more "bloodthirsty" than a 32 ACP. Using a 32 ACP is more bloodthirsty than a 22 rimfire. Come to think of it, using a gun for self defense just means you are one of those crazies who was out to kill someone.

It's all horsepucky. There are no cases in US jurisprudence where the use of handloads has been used as inculpatory evidence. As a matter of fact, a halfway decent defense attorney can hand a prosecutor's butt to him if the prosecutor goes down that path.
 

Chris_B

New member
That's not the logic at all Phil. The question was not of caliber, but of the character of the person 'allegedly' defending himself; ie: somebody who would use deadly force if it were not called for. Deadly force is deadly force, but terms like "overkill" are common parlance and despite their being absurdist, a jury is not made up of lawyers, its made up of opinions based on how law is presented to it

Your legal advice is that it's bunk. That's great, and I appreciate it. But lawyers can be wrong. From your standpoint, it's useless for me to take this ridiculously easy step to avoid the whole issue. To me its so obviously the prudent course to avoid the issue entirely.
 

FALPhil

New member
Chris, that is your choice, and I applaud you for it. The issue I am attacking is the untruth and distortion around the use of handloads for self defense, because all it is is untruth and distortion.
 

cpaspr

New member
Phil -

Untruth and distortion or not, it is still an argument that prosecutors can, and do, use to try to persuade juries.

And that's because juries are not made up of people generally knowledgable about guns, when guns are involved in the case. A competent prosecutor will challenge such a potential juror off the case faster than you can say Annie Oakley.

If Chris, or any of us, can avoid the possibility of such an argument being raised, why not avoid it?

It's the same base reason for carrying the same defense ammo the cops use. No one is considered bloodthirsty if they are using the same ammo the cops use. Not hypothetically, or as used by prosecutors, more arguably, more damaging or more destructive than what the cops carry.
 

BillCA

New member
Chris,

I'm glad you recognized I wasn't criticizing but offering thoughts and ideas. :) But, I feel bad that you misconstrued the intent of many of the suggestions.

The comments on the phones were to inform not only you, but others reading the thread that cordless phones don't always work during a power outage. Certainly VoIP does not. And cell-phones, if you have them (a mixed blessing to be sure) will only work as long as the local cell towers have some kind of power (main grid, solar, battery, etc.). There are tons of folks who don't know it.

The same goes regarding sirens. I've met people in their 50's who don't distingish any differences in sirens or how they're used. To them, it's just another city sound they learn to deal with.

Re: Magazines... my comment was more in relation to why you didn't already have some magazines loaded. I'm not particularly parnoid, but I keep three mags ready for the 1911 just in the odd case that there is a magazine problem or I'm forced to using a spare. Your post made it seem as though you had zero loaded mags in the house -- and in Taxachusetts it wouldn't surprise me if their laws were like D.C.'s in that regard.

Re: Police scanner - I think you completely missed my point. Certainly listening to police calls is reactive to what's happenng "out there". And no one expects you to be bent over a map, plotting where crimes are breaking out and trying to predict the next one. :rolleyes: My suggestion was meant to give you another source of knowledge of the type of things going on nearby. Are the sirens responding to an accidental injury call or a fight? A traffic collision or a stabbing? But your response, I thought, completely missed the point and was over the top. No interest? :cool: Ignore the suggestion.

Re: Holster - Your comment ...I can't CCW, but I can be ready to open carry... appeared to denote someone ready to saddle-up if something happened in the neighborhood. That was the impression. You also didn't mention going to bed or padding around in your boxers either. Coupled with "loading up three magazines" and re-configuring a GI web belt it did sound a little... well, out of the ordinary.

Re: Reloads - A much over-hyped warning, IMO. Massad Ayoob likes to reiterate this every chance he gets too. I'll grant you that if you handload a .45 ACP up to 1200 fps and glue a steel BB over the hollow-point you filled with fulminated mercury that you'll see some extra prosecution. But if you're reloads are standard recipe loads out of a reloading book using commercial bullets then there isn't much for the prosecution to hang their hat on. Others say "why take the chance?" and it's a good argument. But in the situation you describe it wouldn't bother me in the least. Unless you did use fulminated mercury and a bb... ;)

Regards,
 

Fox1

New member
Chris B,

First let me say, I agree with you and many others in NOT carrying reloads for self defense.

One thought I had while reading this thread, fortunately you don't need to use this thought but I wanted to throw it out there:

Let's say you did have to use your firearm in self defense and if you did make it all the way through the first magazine, that alone would demonstrate that the situation was fairly serious. Let's then suppose you did have to switch to a mag with (unknown to you at the time) reloads and fire one or two of those.

Given this hypothetical situation, if one were to end up in court, I think it could easily be pointed out that there was a blackout at the time and no one can really tell, in the dark, what is factory and what is a reload.

At least I can't.

Anyhow, just some thoughts.
 

Jart

New member
FALPhil said:
Really?? And what cases would those be? Can you cite specific examples?

I think you are repeating an urban legend.

I can help with that if mining the sister forum is permitted.

I would offer the note that the inability to duplicate GSR results against a known quantity seems to be as large a problem as any other factor with reloads. Believing the issue is restricted to charges of "building ninja ammo" misses the point.

From:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140

Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court
As promised, here are the sources for records for any who feel a need to confirm the cases I have referenced previously where handloaded ammunition caused problems for people in the aftermath of shootings.

As I have noted in this thread earlier, and as the attorneys who have responded to this matter have confirmed, local trials and results are not usually available on-line. However, in each case, I have included the location where the physical records of the trials are archived.

NH v. Kennedy

James Kennedy, a sergeant on the Hampton, NH police force, pursued a drunk driver whose reckless operation of the vehicle had forced other motorists off the road. The suspect ended up in a ditch, stalled and trying to get underway again. Advised by radio that responding backup officers were still a distance away, and fearing that the man would get back on the road and kill himself and others, Kennedy approached the vehicle. At the driver’s door, the suspect grabbed Kennedy’s Colt .45 auto and pulled it towards himself. It discharged in his face, causing massive injury.

The reload in the gun was a 200 grain Speer JHP, loaded to duplicate the 1000 fps from a 5” barrel then advertised by Speer for the same bullet in loaded cartridge configuration.

This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.

This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.

NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6” S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30”, and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50” or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24”. Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor’s office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.

Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client’s innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.

For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”

He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”

Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, “Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise’s head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?”

She replied, “You’re certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, “It couldn’t have happened the way he said it did’.”

The records on the Bias trials should be available through:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823

Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)


TN v. Barnes

The decedent attacked Robert Barnes and his young daughter with a large knife and was shot to death by the defendant with SJHP .38 Special reloads from a Smith & Wesson Model 36. The distance between the two at the time of the shooting became a key element in the trial, and a misunderstanding of that distance was a primary reason he was charged with Murder. The evidence was messed up in a number of ways in this case, and I do not believe the reloaded ammo (which the prosecution did not recognize to be such until during the trial) was the key problem, but it definitely was part of a problem in reconstructing the case. We were able to do that without GSR evidence, and Mr. Barnes won an acquittal. In this case, I believe the use of factory ammo, combined with proper handling and preserving of the evidence by the initial investigators, would have made the defense much easier and might well have prevented the case from ever being lodged against him.

The records of TN v. Barnes are archived under case number 87297015 at:

Criminal Justice Center
201 Poplar
Suite 401
Memphis, TN 38103

Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems

A man attempted to disarm and murder Corporal Randy Willems of the Davenport, IA Police Department, screaming “Give me your (expletive deleted) gun, I’ll blow your (expletive deleted) brains out.” Willems shot him during the third disarming attempt, dropping him instantly with one hit to the abdomen from a department issue factory round, Fiocchi 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+. The subject survived and stated that the officer had shot him for nothing from a substantial distance away. GSR testing showed conclusively that the subject’s torso was approximately 18” from the muzzle of the issue Beretta 92 when it discharged. Randy was acquitted of criminal charges in the shooting at trial in 1990. Two years later, Randy and his department won the civil suit filed against them by the man who was shot.

I use this case when discussing handloads because it is a classic example of how the replicability of factory ammunition, in the forensic evidence sense, can annihilate false allegations by the “bad guy” against the “good guy” who shot him. The records of State of Iowa v. Corporal Randy Willems are archived in the Iowa District Court in Scott County, Davenport, Iowa. Those from the civil suit, Karwoski v. Willems and the City of Davenport, should be at the Iowa Civil Court of Scott County, also located in Davenport, Iowa.

A final word: I did not research the above and place it here to placate lightweight net ninjas. I did it because three recent Internet threads led me to believe that a number of decent people had honest questions about the real-world concerns about using handloads for self-defense, and were possibly putting themselves in jeopardy by doing so. For well over a decade, certain people have been creating an urban myth that says, “No one has ever gotten in trouble in court because they used handloads.”

This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob
 

KingEdward

New member
quote... "I can't CCW, but I can be ready to open carry. I'm not parading about with the thing on, it just gets draped over the chair in case its wanted; even in the dark, "

by ready to open carry, do you mean outside the residence? if so, why would you go outside if there were threats or dangerous activity outside?

Inside is much safer.

why would a scheduled event neccesitate any change to your normal evening
security preparations? Mine are the same each evening just a little more situational awareness if some event is known about.

unless I'm missing something, you can be inside with all the guns and tools
and whatever items you want. It doesn't matter if they are on the chair, in your bed, or laying in your lap on a tv tray.

My situation is different in that I keep revolvers and speed loaders loaded with factory ammo so there are no mag/clip or handload issues.

Going outside can change many things. Including your risk of being attacked/harmed.
 

B.N.Real

New member
I hear a noise around my yard,when and if I go to check it out,I am armed.

Be they reloads or not the important thing to me is that they wiill work if you need them.

Chris B.,never apologize for being smart enough to be ready.

The criminals always are.
 

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
The prosecution does not have to bring it up in some inflammatory manner that some posit.

It is well-known (as I presented at the Polite Society) that in jury simulations the presentation of weapons based info in a manner that would seem normal can influence some jurors with negative firearms attitudes.

That kind of issue doesn't make the legal data bases as it isn't grounds for appeal, for instance.

The effect is most powerful in ambiguous shoots (they ain't always a good shoot - look at the Pharmacy thread in tactics).

Whether the pharmacist was in the right to finish off the 16 year old is being debated. Some community sentiment is negative to him.

If he went to trial, the prosecution could simply ask him (if this was the case) - did you handload these rounds as you thought they would have more stopping power? Now if you were on the stand (maybe you shouldn't be on the stand) - that could be a bad thing. According to the press report, the pharmacist said after a previous robbery - that it wasn't going to happen again to him. Could you gently present a 'blood lust' schema about him. The side that make the most coherent story seems to win the day.

So why feed into the other side? That's the argument.
 

Wildalaska

Moderator
If he went to trial, the prosecution could simply ask him (if this was the case) - did you handload these rounds as you thought they would have more stopping power? Now if you were on the stand (maybe you shouldn't be on the stand) - that could be a bad thing. According to the press report, the pharmacist said after a previous robbery - that it wasn't going to happen again to him. Could you gently present a 'blood lust' schema about him. The side that make the most coherent story seems to win the day.

Give this man an A also:D

WildthisplaceisgettingrealgoodAlaska ™
 

azredhawk44

Moderator
Thank you Jart for posting the Mas Ayoob research from THR (and to Mas as well).

I was one of the non-believers until someone actually cited case law.

I promptly unloaded my carry ammo for my Colt Commander (230gr Speer GDHP handloads in new starline brass at standard pressures from published loads) and put in the only new retail ammo I currently have on hand... Fiocchi 230gr ball.

While I hate the logic of it, I cannot argue with it. I also have a very close friend going thru a bad time with depression and I don't want to recreate the NJ v. Bias case (though I lock up my gun when this friend comes to visit).

My reason for carrying handloads was that it was much cheaper to function-test 200 rounds of hollowpoints if I bought them as components rather than crazy-expensive defensive ammo... but I'll "bite the bullet" and get enough defensive stuff that I don't have this worry in the future.

AZRedhawkConverted44
 

Chris_B

New member
Bill-

No, I get what you're saying. I didn't give full details of what I was doing, and so that forces you to kind of 'fill in the blanks', so to speak. I understand, and you've made a lot of good points

Re: the holster. The things that I "reconfigured" were not to go to battle :) It was because the things I removed (like the canteen) would add weight to one end or the other of the belt, and make the belt slip off the chair I had it on! :D

When I said "I can be ready to open carry", I didn't mean to infer that I would be traversing the neighborhood, it was more a comment on how my stupid locality stupidly will not give me a CCW permit- traipsing around the block doing good deeds with a gun...ooo I could see it in the papers now: "Local gun nut steps on rusty nail during black-out, faces 5 to 10 years for public endangerment". :D

You and King Edward both pick up on the holster angle, and it's a valid point to make. My intent here was to have a place to park the pistol- bear in mind that the place was darker than a mineshaft at midnight, and if I needed both hands for something, I'd rather have the pistol on my hip- where I can find it- than on table or the floor- where I probably couldn't find it- plus the belt was an easy to find place for the two extra mags to 'live'. I could easily see fumbling around on a nightstand for mags, and knocking them over, lost in the dark. It seemed smart to have an "all in one" location ready in an easy to locate place

I guess one of my first mistakes was to forget how dark it really gets at night with no electricity!
 
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