Old can of 2400

I want to add thanks to Slamfire for his research efforts. I'd acquired a copy of the military powder deterioration study in the past, but not some of the other material.

Human beings tend to believe anecdotal evidence and hearsay because thousands of years of tribal life taught us that was how we learned things and got a better chance to survive. But tribes weren't millions of people, so that low probability events would never be experienced by any members in most of them. Now that we do things with large numbers of people able to communicate about it to one another, there shouldn't any longer be an excuse for not knowing, but old habits are hard to break.

Of particular interest to me was the link to the thread on N140. In the early 1990's, my dad got a 1/4 lb free sample container of N140 at Camp Perry, and gave half of it to me. That's about 20 rounds worth in .308; not enough to do serious load development with. I put it in a plastic bottle with a plated and painted steel cap with cardboard seal disc. I left it at the back of a high shelf in the basement where it was out of sight and soon out of mind. Some time later I bought a full pound of N140 to experiment with, but that original 1/4 lb continued to sit.

I finally re-encountered the bottle during some cleaning out activity. It looked like this:
l7rs.jpg


The powder in it was not powder any longer. The grains were all stuck together. That was the result of the lid seal failing and letting humidity in. The acid fumes corroded the lid out. Rinse water put over it poured out yellow. At that point I cut the container open and buried the wet mass under the compost heap to let nature take its course.

Interestingly, the remaining 1/8 lb still at my father's place (also untouched) appeared to be in fine condition in it's original container. Shaking some out onto a white sheet of paper to look for traces of red dust showed no signs of any. Odor was normal. Nonetheless, with only that small amount left, we scattered it over the yard.
 
Spacecoast,

Wait a second... That can is metal with a paper label?

Are you sure it's not cardboard with a metal upper and lower plate?
 

spacecoast

New member
Mike -

I think you're correct, the sides are stiff cardboard and the top and bottom are metal. However, the label does appear to be a separate piece of paper wrapped around the "can" and glued at a vertical seam near one corner.

Here's a bit of the powder - no dust that I can see, just a homogeneous mix of very consistent "flakes" or whatever you call them.

photo51_zps9e5f530d.jpg
 
OK, this ad would have been produced no later than 1933, which is when Du Pont's IMR 17 1/2 was taken off the market.

At that time you can see how Hercules was packaging its powders, in flask-like containers (lower right corner).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gun-Powder-...Vintage-1930s-Union-Catalog-Ads-/150998912691

I'm afraid, though, that I'm at the end of what I can do on the internet. To pin it down exactly I'm thinking I would have to contact Alliant and see if they would tell me anything, or I'd have to go and research at NRA.
 

spacecoast

New member
To pin it down exactly I'm thinking I would have to contact Alliant and see if they would tell me anything, or I'd have to go and research at NRA.

Good idea Mike, I will try to contact Alliant and see if they can tell me anything. I looked for a powder tin collecting group online but haven't been able to find anything organized yet.

The more I look at the Taffin article the more I think it might be the same container, as I think I see a couple of wrinkles in the paper near the bottom edge in that can he dated to "before the 50s".
 

reloader28

New member
WOW I have 2 cans of that old stuff in Mikes picture. Had no idea it was that old.
I've shot out of both cans. IMR4198 and IMR4227. I had another can of 4198, but my uncle wanted it when I emptied it.

My 2400 is in the small square rifle powder canisters with the push/pop top lids. Price on it says $2.48 and it shoots fine. I'm using in my 44's.
 
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"My 2400 is in the small square rifle powder canisters with the push/pop top lids."

Those appear to have been the next generation of can after the one that Spacecoast has shown here.

From what I can tell the push pop lids were used from the early to mid 1960s into the 1970s.

If you ever want to get rid of those two, talk to me. :)
 

snuffy

New member
I have a couple of old Hercules cans that I just emptied;

P8010069.JPG


Mike, let me know if you're interested, I'll ship them to ya.
 
Neat, Snuffy, yeah! I'll send you a PM later today and we can discuss particulars...

That H110 can is interesting.

I THINK it came out in the middle 1970s to replace the metal push pop cans, but only lasted a few years before they were replaced by the round printed paste board cans with the pull out plastic spout.

They look as if they would have been something of a pain in the butt to pour from if they don't have any kind of internal spout.
 

Slamfire

New member
I want to add thanks to Slamfire for his research efforts. I'd acquired a copy of the military powder deterioration study in the past, but not some of the other material.

I appreciate the thanks. I thought it was important to fill a knowledge hole that is not being addressed, or is being addressed incorrectly in the gun media. The fight against false dogma from authority figures is a continuing and endless fight. I think education will help people from wasting their money, or worse, getting hurt. At least they have an idea of the risks and can decide for themselves.

I would like to have permission to use your N140 picture in the future. The more graphical examples I have will help prove the point that gunpowder has a shelf life, and that it varies considerably.
 

spacecoast

New member
Finally got an answer back from Alliant on my "When was this manufactured?" inquiry for that old can of 2400 -

From your photos I do not see anything showing a date code.
If there is still powder left in the can and looking at the can you should dispose of the powder in a safe manner. But, I'm sure you wish to keep the can for collecting. Safe ways to dispose of the powder is use it as a fertilizer in your yard/garden. Just spread it out thinly and not in piles. If this is not a possibly option call your local fire department and they most likely have a means of disposing.
It is an interesting looking old can though.

:(
 

F. Guffey

New member
Whole looking for something I looked through old cans of powder, some with paper labels, some with fiber bottoms and metal tops. The oldest cans were oval, red metal cans, those are the oldest with paper labels.

I will never understand the long lengthy threads that talk about 'it' but no one does any test. many years ago I hauled explosives, 45,000 pounds at a time, there was no talking, if the bombs were leaking out the plug in the nose "WE HAD A PROBLEM'. Then there was defoliant.

Back to gassing, again. I purchases 8 pound jugs of surplus powder, after that there were members of reloading forums scaring each other with horror stories. The jugs I purchased should have never been used for anything volatile. The plastic used in the jugs could not stand the changes in atmospheric pressure and temperature changes. The jugs fatigued and gassed out?, lost that new powder smell and got warm. I should have divided the 8 pounds of powder in smaller suitable containers.

F. Guffey
 

Dufus

New member
An old thread, but what the heck?

I have old cans of powder like the pictures posted by snuffy.

I still use them. So far, the only one that has gone to the dust factory is a partial can of H4831.

I have no problem using any of them since I was the original purchaser, and therefore am fully aware of how they were stored over the years.....right at 50 of those years.

In regards to Mr. Guffey's post, I only bought one container that was larger than the standard size of 8 oz. or 1 lb, and that was a can of Green Dot that I got at Davis Hardware in Austin, somewhere around 1973. It was $32 for an 8 pounder, which was a price that I could not pass on. Still have some and still use it. It is a large cardboard container with a metal bottom.

I just finished off a 1 lb container of H2400 late last year that I bought in 1965. Could not tell the difference between it and some of the newer stuff.

H2400 or A2400 (whichever it is) is my favorite and go to powder for cast bullets in several suitable calibers. It shoots dirtier than I like, but I can live with it.

If I had the OP's can of H2400 in my possession, I would not hesitate to use it.
 

Sevens

New member
While I understand your point and respect your stance, I take some issue with the idea that it takes you FIFTY YEARS to consume a single pound of powder.

There is some math that could be hashed out here, but I have to laugh at the choice of words when you say "I wouldn't hesitate to use..."

Well, the evidence says otherwise. It seems you genuinely hesistate to use the stuff. Back to quick math... but if (random example) we are talking Hercules 2400 and some .357 Magnum loads, that's 100 rounds annually for each of fifty years to consume a single pound. And that example uses an entire pound, which doesn't fit our argument since you are still dipping from them.

It leaves me to wonder how much hands-on experience one would have from a particular powder (with WHATEVER burning rate a fresh can from 1965 might have...) if the actual in-use experience is a handful of boxes of ammo scattered across half a century.

It does make for interesting conversation and at it's core -- I do agree wholeheartedly... if the stuff did what you want 5yrs ago (or 20...?) then sure, load up more and use it again.

But at the rate that you have been using it, sure seems like splitting hairs. A fresh new pound of powder right now at top-drawer retail and with tax doesn't seem like a frightfully expensive purchase if I knew I'd still be dipping from it when I am NINETY TWO years old! ;)
 

Dufus

New member
Well, I am old enough and have been handloading enough that I really don't feel the need to explain myself, but I will try to put it simply enough for those that seemed concerned to understand.

When I started handloading when I was a young pup, I finally got my Dad involved with me. All the components were stored at his house as I had no where to properly store it.

After growing up and getting off on my own, I developed my own supply and he still had his, meaning we stored supplies at 2 different places.

He turned 85 at his last birthday and is not getting around like he used to. He now has only self defense firearms at his house and handed all his hunting firearms and reloading supplies over to me maybe 3 or 4 years ago. In the supplies that he had was gobs of powder that he had bought over the years plus some of the powder that I had bought and left with him.

Now you can hopefully see the overall scenario. I have inherited from him Red Dot, H4831, IMR 4350, Blue Dot, Herco, AA#9, Bullseye, Unique, IMR 4064 (four unopened canisters), H2400, IMR 700x, IMR 800X, and it is all still good.

I'll be damned to hell if anyone thinks I am throwing it away just because it is old but still perfectly good.

Now you can take your math skills and figure how long it is gonna take me to burn all of that plus what is in my own stash.

I generally load approximately 2000 rounds in total per month, and most of it is handgun. I generally shoot what I handload per month, sometimes not that much.

BUT, when I do shoot, I take my grandson and maybe one or two nephews with me so I can teach them how to shoot and gun safety. You can't learn to shoot with out shooting, just like you can't learn how to fish without fishing and learn to play baseball without playing baseball.

I will be interested in learning of your new calculations.

I forgot to mention that I started handloading with a buddy and his Dad in 1962, and after their tutelage, got off on my own in 1963 and Dad joined me a few months later when he figured out that I was serious about it.

I started casting around 1967 and enjoy that the most at this time. There was a hiatus in between of a few years, but I have plenty of time to do what I want to do now days without work interfering.
 
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Sevens

New member
Like I said, I find the conversation interesting and that is why I elect to participate in it. That you're so tighly wound seems to be an unrelated sidebar.

I still have some Win 473AA that was unopened when I bought it in 1988, it is long out of production. I have used it occasionally in handgun loads since I quit loading 20ga skeet some 26 years ago. My point (if it's not obvious) is that it also works, I also will not throw it away but when I need/want some .38 or .45, I tend to grab the powders I typically use. To suggest that I have 50yrs of experience in making pistol rounds with 473AA would be to use artistic license.

To get all bent over what was a friendly conversation would be redundant considering that you've already got that covered and maybe even have half a century of practice.
 

Dufus

New member
I used to load with 473AA until I could get it no more. There have been some good powders that were discontinued for whatever reason.

I still have some WW230, WW630, and some AL7.

I was not getting testy at all. I guess that you read that into it.

Believe me when I say it does not take me 50 years to use up a pound of powder. You are prolly in the same boat as I in that we see a powder that might have promise and buy a can, load it some, and then it does not do as you hoped it would.

I stopped doing that when the inventory was getting rather high. Now, I have all the loads developed that I would ever hope to have and just don't use the "experimental" stuff much.

Example: I have loads for 45 ACP using 6 different powders and they all shoot good enough for me. That helped a great deal with the shortage of components over the last several years.

I shoot a lot and load a lot. I looked forward to it for more years than I care to think of.

Hope you understand where I was coming from when we started.
 

Sport45

New member
I've got some powder in the closet that will probably still be there when I die if I don't give it to one of the boys or discard it. Some I tried and didn't like for one reason or another. They migrate to the back of the shelf. Can't bring myself to dump them because "some day" I may want to try them in a new gun or something.

What we need is a true litmus test for powder. Wouldn't it be nice if you could put a sticker on the underside of the lid that would turn red when the powder goes bad?
 
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