Ok....223...Mini14?AR15?AR180?

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MosinM38

New member
Okay..Another topic people are sick and tired of ;) AND the topic pops up every 3 weeks. And yes. I searched, but for my exact questions I really couldn't find the answers I was wanting.


Seeing as how the ehh.....elections..are coming along been thinking of getting a semi-auto .223/5.45/7.62.

Pretty much eliminated the 5.45. Ammo is easily found now, but if Import laws are passed the price will go up, even if domestic production is upped. 7.62X39 I have sorta put out too....Nice having a heavy bullet and ammo cheaper then .223, but accuracy has put me off a little.

Plus .223 ammo is in high use everywhere else (In case of a SHTF scenario....Although personally I am somwhat put off by SHTF topics.....).

Pretty much I have come down to these options.
Ruger Mini-14.
AR-15
AR18/180
SLR-106.
The Sig556, and any of the other "Wonderinventions" are sorta out due to price and parts considerations. Which is tough considering I was drooling over a Robarms M96 Stoner lookalike.
(And amazingly a M-14 in .308, but thats a differant subject)

And in that searching I have a few questions. My experiance has been limited to Dad's accurized Mini14,and Colt AR15, 2 unaccurized Mini-14's and 2AK-47's.

#1. How much better than a AR-15 is the AR180 actually? I have heard people say they were about the same, and others saying the AR18 is more reliable.
IS there actually any increased reliability in the AR180 over the AR15? If so is it enough to warrent getting a "Oddball" gun that might be tougher to get parts for. It would have to be a 180 (And not a 18) because it takes some AR15 parts and mags.

#2. I am sortof put off by the AR15...Dad's(Colt HBAR pre-ban) requires meticulous cleaning, and refuses to shoot steel-cased ammo (And handloads vary. Using the same load, it will shoot good one day and bad the next and go back). Is this common? I mean, I know the cleaning is neccessary. But I would think steelcased ammo should function better than it does.

#3. I am sortof impressed by the Mini14 so far. Dad's functions with handloads good and with the 20 round mags good (30 round one doesnt work though). He accurized it and it shoots 1"...1 1/2" groups easily. I think with some work a Mini-14 could be accurized to 2-2 1/2" and then it would ahve the advantage of reliability too.
Only thing I don't like is if a AWB ban passes in 09, Mini-14 mags will be tougher to get and more expensive than AR ones. Or if someday parts are banned too, that they will be tough to get.

#4. I was thinking of a SLR-106, but I personally am put off somewhat by the polymer mags. Does anyone make metal magazines for it? Also does it accept the same mags as the Wasr 3? Also I don't like the side-mounted optics....Is there any (Feasable) ways to mount a upper-mounted scope? At the least, is there a side-mounting system that allows use of standard US optics?

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I wasn't sure to stick with the .223 round. But the 7.62 AK's don't shoot to well of my (Oh wow huge ;) ) experiance with 2. Both owned by others and I never shot them. But both grouped roughly 4" on the good days with good ammo and about 5 1/2" with steel-cased ammo. Both had been shot scoped and unscoped, and the owners I would consider experianced shooters, so it wasn't their fault accuracy wise.

I like the 7.62X39 round, but I want a gun you can put a scope on and actually take advantage of it. I would like to be able to shoot, and usually hit a praire dog at 200 yards.
A final option is that I am a M-14 fan (Thats why I like the Ruger Mini). The only thing holding me back, is that .308 ammo is *WOW*, compared to .223 or &.62X39 ammo.

Sorry to bring this all up, but with the price of guns nowadays I wanted to double/triple/quadruple/ check around and hear opinions.

Thanks for any replies :D
 
5

5whiskey

New member
Reply to the AK comment:

A quality built AK (I think WASRs are the rage now, but ask someone who knows more about production runs of the rifle) in 7.62 can be just as accurate as the AK in 5.56. 7.62x39 is no less inherently inaccurate than 5.56. The other pros and cons of AKs have been beat to death so I won't go any further other than they can hold a "minute of bad guy", often times better than that. The horribly inaccurate AKs are mostly the ones that were mass produced with no attention to tolerances to spread war throughout every 3rd world country.

Reply to AR:

You will have to clean an AR to keep it functioning. Most people are confused by this. Clean does not mean "pristine". You don't have to baby the things, but you do have to take reasonable care of them. Keep the thing lubed pretty generously. Under normal lube (using enough to prevent rust, but not too much to attract every piece of dust within 2 miles) conditions the action will start to dry out after a hundred rounds or so. Once the lube starts drying with the carbon in it, it also starts to get gummy. Keep a small bottle of CLP with you at all times, when this happens dump a generous squirt through both the ejection port and mag well. Then continue to shoot. It's not rocket science, they are pretty reliable guns in the hands of the properly disciplined and trained.

Reply to Mini:

They are (mostly) reliable, can withstand a little more abuse than the AR, and are reasonably accurate. There are pros and cons, but the good guns overall. What may be a deal breaker is the expense and quality of magazines available. I know a few years ago that was a big issue.
 
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MosinM38

New member
Well, when I reffered to the AK's both were run-of-the-mill Wasr 10's. And I would rather shell out $6-700 for a good quality gun rather than a better AK ;)

As for the AR...Dad can get his functioning and it works okay...The biggest thing is that it is picky concerning ammo. Thanks for the tip though, I always assumed though, that a gun should be able to work through a usage setting without in-field maintenance, as long as it isn't going to be prolonged over several days.

Mini's...Great guns...Only thing Is I would buy only say, 6 mag's for the Mini whereas I would get 12 AR's for the same price...I am amazed sortof... Seen a fair number of mag's and in general the AR's are better than a Mini's for the same price....go figure :confused:
 
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Tomac

New member
The Mini's accuracy can be significantly increased quite easily: Chop the bbl and/or add a flash hider or muzzle brake (changes bbl harmonics), trigger job & ensure the gas block bolts are properly torqued. Did that to a new 580 and it cut group size in half (would shoot about 1.5" groups at 100yds w/a scope using Winchester 45gr varmint loads). Ruger is supposedly selling factory 20rd mags (which allow you to shoot from prone unlike with the 30rd mags) but PMI 20rd & ProMag 30rd polymer/20rd steel mags get good reviews as well (w/the ProMag polymers they need a little wear-in/cycling time but then have been 100% for me). I find the Mini easier to clean than an AR, handles better and tolerates a more varied diet (ie: steel cased ammo, lightweight varmint loads, etc) but isn't as easy to scope.
Tomac
 
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RockyMtnTactical

New member
Most quality AR15's will shoot steel cased ammo no problem. However, it can be slightly more problematic, given the caliber. Since 5.56 is not tapered much there is more contact made with the chamber when extracting and feeding. And since steel does not contract like brass does, well... you can see why stuck cases are sometimes a factor with steel cased ammo.

My AR15's shoot steel cased ammo fine. I don't tend to shoot it much though as I prefer brass for being more reliable in all weapons. Wolf is the last of the steel cased ammo offerings that I would use though as it doesn't have good QC in my experience, and this is mostly in 7.62x39. However, it doesn't shoot as innacurately in .223 as it does in 7.62x39.

I don't care for the Mini-14, but it has a bad rap, mostly undeserved.
 
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Bull Barrell

New member
One thing about the Mini-14 IS its reliability. It always goes bang. Now, it's not very accurate after you throw a few slugs downrange and heat up the barrel. But it will fire and can be quite accurate with a little work. I've left my stinless Ranch model stock except for a flash hider and replaced the lousy factory synthetic stock with a Hogue overmolded unit. It shoots better than I can see through the peep sight at 100 yds.

The early ARs such as your dad's Colt were very finnicky about cleanliness. The newer variants out there aren't that bad. At least mine and those of my friends aren't.

As for Mini-14 mags, stay with Ruger factory units or Mec-Gar. Check over on the Ruger forum and you'll find loads of info on the Minis.
 
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MosinM38

New member
Hey thanks for all the info!!!

It helped out alot!! I am sortof thinking between a Mini or a newer AR15(WOW....3 months ago I never would even thought of an AR:D).

I guess the reason I like steel-case ammo, is it is okay for cheap practice. Reloading is still THE cheapest, but that runs into time and we both shoot a lot of .223 ;) and if you keep your eyes open there seems to be "OK" priced .223 ammo sales occasionally.

Anyone out there know anything about the AR-180? I am sorta thinking they are out, but they are a better looking gun than a AR-15 ;)

P.S. I think a lot of the bad rap about Mini's is two BIG faults.
#1. They heat up and their groups start expanding somewhat.
#2. I know a LOT of Mini owners that "Make do" with $14.99 magazines...Doesn't lead to stellar repuatations :rolleyes:

Anyway. Thanks again!!

P.P.S. Maybe I should just buy both *Laughs*.
 
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DaveInGA

New member
Here's something for you to think about.

1. Steel cased ammo is inexpensive for more than one reason. It's accuracy is mediocre. It can't be reloaded. It's variability in powder weights from round to round has the potential (and often does) to cause functioning problems in semi automatics.

2. Brass cased ammo is more expensive, but if you take the time to learn something about the ammo you're buying, you can find reasonably priced brass ammo that is not only more accurate than the steel cased, but also provides you with a leftover brass case that you can reload.

3. Handloading/reloading your own ammo is the way to get the most accuracy out of your rifle as you can custom tune your loads to your firearm. Additional perks are you get the satisfaction of shooting ammo you made yourself and getting to shoot better ammo as often or more often than you shoot the cheap stuff.

About the rifles on your original list, here's a couple of comments on the rifles I'm familiar with:

Ruger Mini-14 When I got out of the service, I looked hard at this rifle. The shop I was in had a lot of SKS's in stock and I compared this rifle closely to the SKS. The difference in quality was obvious and I chose the SKS over the Mini-14. That was in the year 1988. Nothing I've seen or read in the intervening years has changed my mind that I made the wrong decision. Many time, too many times, you have to make costly mods to the rifle to get it to shoot and the mags are not standard, thereby making it a bit harder to find a dependable magazine. Why buy this rifle when there are other rifles out of the box that outshoot it and have much greater modularity? If it were closer in cost to the SKS, it might be a different story, but it isn't in the same league with the AR, the SKS or the AK.

AR-15 While the reliability issue has been discussed long and hard on this rifle, I've not seen reports in the liberal news media of actual failures of these weapons in combat. Knowing how they love to raise heck about things like this, I suspect the reliability issue to be way over blown.

That said, the ergonomics, accuracy, flexilibity and modularity are unsurpassed by any rifle out there. It's the 1911 of rifles. You can buy a receiver for around a hundred bucks and make your own rifle in a myriad of different configurations. Or buy multiple uppers/stocks and have more than one configuration.

I've owned and own AK's, SKS's and a myriad of other semi automatic rifles. I've never had more shooting satisfaction than I've had with AR's. And I prefer a wood stock to the plastic. But the fact remains, the AR platform is a darn good one.

AR18/180 Gene Stone designed this rifle to address reliability issues (of the Vietnam era) M16. The military chose not to buy it and hence the platform hasn't been fully developed to be as smooth as it could be. The basic design is an excellent one.

But I wouldn't buy the gun as currently produced. I would wait and see if Magpul gets their Masada version of this rifle to market before the Dems manage to get some kind of assault rifle ban passed.

The Magpul Masada has the potential to truly be the replacement for the M16/M4 series of rifles. A rifle designed by riflemen, for riflemen.

SLR-106. A good AK variant. I own an SLR101 and the Bulgarians do a good job. It's still an AK though, with the typical accuracy. More accurate than most AK's, but not an AR.

AS far as AK's in general, there's a lot of cheaply assembled (in the USA) parts kits out there that just aren't as reliable as the original design. While there are also excellent companies assembling them here, the low end stuff can be pretty poor with issues. I know, I've fixed enough of the darn things in the shop here.

Sig556 Excellent weapon, but on the heavy side. Better than most of the "wonderrifles" coming from Europe, but like most of them, still isn't a rifle designed by a rifleman.

Robarms M96 Stoner This rifle has great potential, but like the AR180, still need some development and has some issues.

M-14 in .308 This rifle is an upgraded version of the M1 Garand and is a rifleman's rifle. It rewards you when shooting it and has a long reach.

A poor man's M14 available now is one of the Saiga 308's. They are about as accurate as a stock M14, but cost less than $500.00. Not sure if the modified AK action is as reliable as an AK, but certainly worth looking at.

I gunsmith part time in the evenings with a buddy of mine (Yes, we both have gunsmith training.) have seen a lot of problem guns. Most problem AR's I see are because the owner (Or some other genius) has choosen to do something incredibly stupid that affects the gas system, such as drilling gas port holes where they hadn't oughta be, then filling the holds with JB weld or some such.

I have a High Master rating in High Power rifle. I've shot a lot of IDPA, IPSC and Three-gun. I own 3 safes full of rifles and collect firearms. I own several AR's and AK's in various calibers.
 
A

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
You might consider getting into reloading. It's not so much that overall, you save money: The deal is that for a given amount of money you can shoot more. And, of course, tailor the ammo to your particular purpose.

I'm still sorta puzzled about today's mags for Minis. Back in the late '70s, early '80s, I messed around with 20s, 30s and even one 40-round mag. They all functioned as reliably as I'd ever have hoped. Never a problem, and the silly things weren't all that expensive, either...

Art
 
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MosinM38

New member
Yeah.... Reloading is probably the best....I Guess although dad reloads I am sorta leery ;) I have seen some Scary ----- with reloads. And none of the times anyone though there was something wrong... But I probably will have to. Although I only have 2 purposes.
#1. 55 grain softpoint. Good for plinking or praire dog shooting
#2. 50-52 grain hollowpoint for coyote hunting.
I guess I don't use nothing else, except for cheap PMC, or American Eagle FMJ's I pick up occasionally.

And THANKS TO EVERYONE!!! for the help. All the reviews and everything have pretty much decided me.

Probably planning on getting a AR15 (Bushmaster, or RockRiverArms) as a base and then maybe later trying something else out. Not gonna "Pimp it" like a lot of others though ;) I personally think people go overboard. Get a dozen GOOD magazines for it, quality scope and sling and call it good.

I have heard good things about the Masada...Sadly though I am betting that there will be a new AWB whipped up so fast it will make your head spin(I am guessing before the year '09 is finished). Plus I think their price will be a little outta my range....My cap is about $850 including the scope...and THAT's pushing it.


P.S. There is one thing that Dad did and the other Mini's I know of that helped accuracy immensely. And that was lossening the barrel band screws (The 4 at the nose of the stock, securing the barrel). Loosened them some and groups shrank from 4" to about 1 1/2"
 
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scsov509

New member
P.P.S. Maybe I should just buy both *Laughs*.
Click to expand...

Why not, that's what I did. My Mini-14 has a side folding stock, a dozen quality Magazines, and is one of my favorite plinking guns. Then this past year I saved up my pennies and picked up a RRA AR-15. I'm not sorry that I have both, and like each for different reasons. Depends on what you want it for. If it want to shoot sub-moa groups off of a benchrest then the AR is the go to rifle. Plus it is lighter, and the parts are much easier to come by. Still, that Mini is just plain fun to shoot, and in a state of civil unrest it's probably the gun I'd reach for and trust to go bang every time.
 
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jpwilly

New member
At one time I was in your shoes and choose the AR-15. My first on was a Varmint style rifle but with a heavy bull bbl I liked it so much I bought the lightweight plinking version an M4gery. Reliability isn't an issue and bacause all other factors i.e. accuracy, magazines, parts, etc etc point to the AR platform you cannot go wrong.
 
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MosinM38

New member
I am thinking 2 or 3 things.

#1. I am going to probably get a AR15 in the standard "A2" format. 20" barrel, fixed buttstock.
#2...I figure that later if I can scrape up the money I will get a "Dirt gun" one that doesn't require cleaning and is more to mess around a day ;) Like a AK47 or something. If the AWB is passed...ah well...

And who knows...I am thinking the Mini-14 might be exempt from another AWB again....The fact that Mini's don't seem to be used in crime hardly ever may help them out. And the fact they got wood stocks and don't have "Evil pistol grips for hip-shooting" :p
 
2

22_Shooter

New member
What about a Saiga in .223. You get the caliber you want, all the reliability you need, and FAR cheaper than anything else on your list.
 
3

.351winchester

Moderator
Seeing as how the ehh.....elections..are coming along been thinking of getting a semi-auto .223/5.45/7.62.

Pretty much eliminated the 5.45. Ammo is easily found now, but if Import laws are passed the price will go up, even if domestic production is upped. 7.62X39 I have sorta put out too....Nice having a heavy bullet and ammo cheaper then .223, but accuracy has put me off a little.

Plus .223 ammo is in high use everywhere else (In case of a SHTF scenario....Although personally I am somwhat put off by SHTF topics.....).

Pretty much I have come down to these options.
Ruger Mini-14.
AR-15
AR18/180
SLR-106.
The Sig556, and any of the other "Wonderinventions" are sorta out due to price and parts considerations. Which is tough considering I was drooling over a Robarms M96 Stoner lookalike.
(And amazingly a M-14 in .308, but thats a differant subject)

And in that searching I have a few questions. My experiance has been limited to Dad's accurized Mini14,and Colt AR15, 2 unaccurized Mini-14's and 2AK-47's.

#1. How much better than a AR-15 is the AR180 actually? I have heard people say they were about the same, and others saying the AR18 is more reliable.
IS there actually any increased reliability in the AR180 over the AR15? If so is it enough to warrent getting a "Oddball" gun that might be tougher to get parts for. It would have to be a 180 (And not a 18) because it takes some AR15 parts and mags.
>>This will piss people off, but the AR-15 is the bottom of the barrel in design, as far as reliability goes. I clean and maintain my guns, so should you. But I also want something that wouldn't choke cause I didn't. On the other hand, aside from that, basically in every other respect, the commonality of the AR makes it your best pick.

#2. I am sortof put off by the AR15...Dad's(Colt HBAR pre-ban) requires meticulous cleaning, and refuses to shoot steel-cased ammo (And handloads vary. Using the same load, it will shoot good one day and bad the next and go back). Is this common? I mean, I know the cleaning is neccessary. But I would think steelcased ammo should function better than it does.
>>see above. The AR-180B, Su-16, (O.O.P.) Bushy M-17S Bullpup, AK's, Mini's, Century Galil's got it beat dead to rights here

#3. I am sortof impressed by the Mini14 so far. Dad's functions with handloads good and with the 20 round mags good (30 round one doesnt work though). He accurized it and it shoots 1"...1 1/2" groups easily. I think with some work a Mini-14 could be accurized to 2-2 1/2" and then it would ahve the advantage of reliability too.
Only thing I don't like is if a AWB ban passes in 09, Mini-14 mags will be tougher to get and more expensive than AR ones. Or if someday parts are banned too, that they will be tough to get.
>>I had 3 of em, incl. a pre-ban GB model that I loved. The mag issue-cheap AK's and lower priced AR's have bumped them back to #3 status if that. In the 80's and Early 90's, this was THE gun for survivalists,patriots, ranchers, even outlaws...you name it. Such is not the case now. The Mag and ammo problems you mention can be solved by buying now. Buy used, never pay close to 700. for a Mini 14.

#4. I was thinking of a SLR-106, but I personally am put off somewhat by the polymer mags. Does anyone make metal magazines for it? Also does it accept the same mags as the Wasr 3? Also I don't like the side-mounted optics....Is there any (Feasable) ways to mount a upper-mounted scope? At the least, is there a side-mounting system that allows use of standard US optics?
>>The top cover is QD-scope mounting is a house of cards up there. Poly mags are good-keep feeding when metal is dented outta action. Arsenal makes the best AK's ever-like DSA's FAL's; kind of overkill on quality for that needed in an AK.

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I wasn't sure to stick with the .223 round. But the 7.62 AK's don't shoot to well of my (Oh wow huge ) experiance with 2. Both owned by others and I never shot them. But both grouped roughly 4" on the good days with good ammo and about 5 1/2" with steel-cased ammo. Both had been shot scoped and unscoped, and the owners I would consider experianced shooters, so it wasn't their fault accuracy wise.

I like the 7.62X39 round, but I want a gun you can put a scope on and actually take advantage of it. I would like to be able to shoot, and usually hit a praire dog at 200 yards.
A final option is that I am a M-14 fan (Thats why I like the Ruger Mini). The only thing holding me back, is that .308 ammo is *WOW*, compared to .223 or &.62X39 ammo.

>>By all means get a .308 battle rifle and cover almost every base. Read Boston's Gun Bible-I'll send you my own copy if you need

Sorry to bring this all up, but with the price of guns nowadays I wanted to double/triple/quadruple/ check around and hear opinions.

>>Hell with that. That's what you do, that's why we're here.
 
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