Ny handgun laws
- Thread starter phil930
- Start date
The FFL can ship it to the NY FFL. The NY FFL can have the large magazine because he can sell to those who can legally have them (LEO for example). You on the other hand are committing a felony by having the 17 round mag in your possession. The larger magazine can be "permanently" fixed to carry only 10 rounds. The law does not define "permanent" and the state will not clarify what that means. So I would suggest that if there is not a commercial 10 round mag available, you not buy the gun.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
wogpotter said:
Cite your legal authority. It would be in California. And it is in plain English.
Spats McGee
Administrator
Well, I think you are mistaken, but not mistaken in the way that I thought. Here's the statute on detachable magazines:wogpotter said:
Maryland Code Annotated said:
So, manufacturing, selling, offering for sale, purchase, receipt and transfer are prohibited. I see neither possession, nor import on that list. However, the section delineating the scope of this law is set forth here:
I won't quote the whole definitions section, but that's Md. Code Ann., Crim. Law § 4-301, and it does not contain the word "import," or any variant thereof.Maryland Code Annotated said:
However, I think that wogpotter is wrong in his claim that "bringing something into the State of Maryland" is not "importing." While "importing" is not defined for purposes of magazines, the Maryland Supreme Court has, like many other courts, adopted a "plain meaning" rule:
(internal citations omitted).Maryland Court of Appeals said:
According to Webster's Dictionary:
Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/import
Black's Law Dictionary give us this:
Source: http://thelawdictionary.org/import/
Whether "import by a person not a licensed dealer" is prohibited is one question, but what "import" means is something else entirely. I'm pretty confident in saying that under the "plain meaning" rule, bringing something into Maryland means that you're "importing" it into Maryland.
In spite of my reading of all of the above, there are some fairly wrinkly legal doctrines that would make me very, VERY leery of taking anything with a capacity of over 10 rounds into Maryland.
Now, let's get back to NY law, which was the topic of this thread, shall we?
Spats McGee said:
I'm pretty sure most non-lawyers would disagree because Maryland isn't itself its own country. Moving something (goods) from one state to another within the US would be in my mind an interstate commerce move but not an 'import' per the 'plain meaning.'
I guess lawyers get to define things anyway they want... a rose is a rose by any other name.
Thanks, I learn something new everyday on this site. Some of it, like this, still baffles me though when plain is not so plain.
I believe the OP has been answered as best as it could be.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
"Import" doesn't require entire COUNTRIES to be involved.
It requires an intentional disregard for and suspension of common sense to try to argue that "import" language in a state law requires some sort of foreign country involvement.
Who really believes that NY wrote this law to only make it illegal to bring in high-cap magazine from foreign countries?
"Import" means "to bring into", it doesn't imply international boundaries or trade.
As an example, NY Sate Department of Agriculture has an entire page dedicated to "importing" and "exporting" animals. While it includes Canada, the list is almost entirely made up of the other 49 states.
It requires an intentional disregard for and suspension of common sense to try to argue that "import" language in a state law requires some sort of foreign country involvement.
Who really believes that NY wrote this law to only make it illegal to bring in high-cap magazine from foreign countries?
"Import" means "to bring into", it doesn't imply international boundaries or trade.
As an example, NY Sate Department of Agriculture has an entire page dedicated to "importing" and "exporting" animals. While it includes Canada, the list is almost entirely made up of the other 49 states.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Lawyers, however, are much better positioned and much more likely than you are to understand how a court is likely to treat the question.ChuckS said:
"Plain meaning" is a well settle rule of statutory interpretation. In addition to the case cited by Spats, see Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:
And note the definition of "import" again. It interludes the following (emphasis added):
Spats McGee
Administrator
Just for clarity: The issue of importing is an issue of Maryland law, not NY.Brian Pfleuger said:
Spats McGee
Administrator
Thanks, but I'll take my own counsel over that of "most non-lawyers" when it comes to matters of the law and statutory construction.ChuckS said:
In the broadest sense, "import" means to bring something from outside, in.
What it means in any specific sense depends on context. What it means in a law is what the court says it means, when and if there is a ruling.
the item does not have to cross international boundaries to be an "import" although that is one very common usage of the word.
You can cut & paste text, "importing" it into a document, as well.
One of the key points about the matter of HI Cap mag laws is whether they use the word "import" or something else, the intent is that you cannot have them shipped to you instate. Depending on the interpretation of the specific law, you may, or may not be allowed to bring ones you already own with you if you move into the state.
Also they frown on you travelling to another state to buy them, and bring them home with you. (and this is for your personal property, not items intended for resale. Those items have other specific requirements that must be met to be legal).
What it means in any specific sense depends on context. What it means in a law is what the court says it means, when and if there is a ruling.
the item does not have to cross international boundaries to be an "import" although that is one very common usage of the word.
You can cut & paste text, "importing" it into a document, as well.
One of the key points about the matter of HI Cap mag laws is whether they use the word "import" or something else, the intent is that you cannot have them shipped to you instate. Depending on the interpretation of the specific law, you may, or may not be allowed to bring ones you already own with you if you move into the state.
Also they frown on you travelling to another state to buy them, and bring them home with you. (and this is for your personal property, not items intended for resale. Those items have other specific requirements that must be met to be legal).
I don't know what to tel you other than every time this comes up the same argument follows.
It Ain't Illegal to leave the state, (where MD state law don't apply) buy a "hi cap" magazine, & bring it into MD as owned personal property. There's no law against importation, possession, ownership, transport or use. You can not transfer it though.
& no, it don't make sense either, but this is MD so its not supposed to.
It Ain't Illegal to leave the state, (where MD state law don't apply) buy a "hi cap" magazine, & bring it into MD as owned personal property. There's no law against importation, possession, ownership, transport or use. You can not transfer it though.
& no, it don't make sense either, but this is MD so its not supposed to.
Spats McGee
Administrator
Not one bit of which affects the definition of "import," which was the point I initially raised with you.wogpotter said:
Frank Ettin
Administrator
What really doesn't make sense is your haphazard reference to what the story is in Maryland when this thread is about New York.wogpotter said:
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I guess I'm not most non-lawyers, because on this point I agree completely with the learned counsel. Bringing a product from one state into another may not be importation under federal law, but it certainly is importation under state law.
Respectfully you are misunderstanding the comment by ignoring the earlier post where I asserted that the details were significant. The location wasn’t the point, but the differing details were to illustrate how poor crafting can influence the outcome.
Lets remove the geography, & concentrate instead on the wording if that makes it clearer.
If the law says you can’t OWN, one you can’t. But it doesn’t actually outlaw possession, just ownership. You could, within the letter of the law have a LEO own it & loan it to you to use. On the other hand if it restricted possession you couldn’t because the possessing, regardless of ownership is the issue. To make it work you’d need to ban both ownership & possession.
Yet another approach is to ban the transference, while not prohibiting either ownership not possession once the transfer has occurred legally elsewhere.
One way it regulates THAT you have it, however acquired, the other regulates HOW you acquired it. I was only using MD as an example of the third variation.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
You can't discuss law that way. The issue is what New York law actually is. To understand New York law, one must look at New York. Looking at Maryland law doesn't help.wogpotter said:
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Frank Ettin said:
You seem to be forgetting Kirk's Third Law of the Internet: "If it's the law in Texas, it must be the law everywhere." I suppose as a corollary one simply substitutes the nomme du jour of one's own home state in place of Texas.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Even if that is what you were doing how does that help anyone understand what New York law actually is?wogpotter said:
So stop wasting our time and knock it off.