johnwilliamson062
Moderator
I know it was originally a military rifle, does the average American? If that fact is lost on the average American is it relevant?
NRA- More damage than good?
- Thread starter johnwilliamson062
- Start date
AirForceShooter
New member
I wish you guys would figure out the difference between the NRA and thr NRA-ILA
AFS
AFS
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
I have, in the past, given money directly to the NRA-ILA. I wish they were not under the NRA umbrella though.
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johnwilliamson062
Moderator
I would not expect GOA to do as much as the NRA as they don't have near the financial resources.
A good way to compromise:
http://citizensbriefingbook.change.gov/ideas/viewIdea.apexp?id=087800000004meD&srPos=1&srKp=087
I could live with the laws we already have...
A good way to compromise:
http://citizensbriefingbook.change.gov/ideas/viewIdea.apexp?id=087800000004meD&srPos=1&srKp=087
I could live with the laws we already have...
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Another who does not see the importance of Heller, recognize the advancement of Right to Carry/Shall Issue permits in 38+ states, Castle Doctrine laws in many states, or the Lawful Protection of Commerce in Arms act as anything worth while.
Then there is the AWB... Do you GOA guys think it would NOT have gone through had the NRA stood on principal and completely opposed it? It was going through, like it or not. The NRA though got the sunset clause added which is why it is not Federal Law now.
How about post VT, of course the GOA spun that as "Veterans Disarmament" as part of their attack on the NRA to gain membership dollars but the bottom line is the NRA got a solid path for the return of rights to many who had lost them while also deflecting what would have been some truly nasty legislation after that tragedy by taking the lead.
Then there of course were the Katrina lawsuits.
Then there was the Brady Bill, which was going through no matter what, which they got the instacheck added to to eliminate the waiting federal waiting period.
That's right, the NRA has done nothing...
Odd question, is Larry Pratt hard up for cash? It seems the GOA attacks are on the rise again.
and of course there is the little problem of any national level legislator you ask on the matter responding with "Who?" when you mention them. The GOA may be able to get some legislators to agree with them who would automatically be on the NRA's side of an issue as well due to ideology but they have zero chance of influencing the middle of the road legislators who see them only as fanatics.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Truth be told I would prefer the second be repealed all at once than the slow destruction it faces. Then we might get a real response out of those gun owners who are not involved.
We need to capture influence back in universities, law schools and the legal community, journalism schools, maybe buy a few large newspapers (Why the hell is it only rabid leftists buying newspapers and bending them to their leftist purposes?), the advertising atmosphere, law enforcement upper management, the non profit sector, the medical community, various ethnic communities, etc. Fund scholarships. Speak at lectures. Offer internships with TMLLP, Alan Gura, and similar law firms for law students, biz internships at firearms manufacturers and other companies relevent to RKBA and related outdoor activities, recruit the top interns for pro RKBA lobbying and pro 2A lawmakers instead of the antis (so much so the antis can't get any good ones or dream of all dreams any at all), influence funding for academics by rerouting funding away from anti 2A professors and their projects and/or offer substitutes, and so forth. Have every NRA and other RKBA organization member withold direct contributions to universities until they reverse their policies against campus carry, and possibly instead contribute to those that allow it.
In short we need to kick the anti gun establishment out of its nests and thereby eradicate it as an influential ideological and political force. Not until we start doing that will we be rid of it--and being rid of it rather than merely playing ping pong with it needs to be our long term goal. Sure, keep doing what we're doing in the courts and the legislature, but we need much deeper, much more permanent solutions to the problem which will squelch its recurrence by cutting it out from the source. We need to transition from a Vietnam War approach--see an enemy, squash it, wait till another one pops up, but go little further--to a World War 2 approach which is attack the enemy's weapons and its infrastructure, directly eliminating its ability to continue to fight not just the next day but ever again at all. Winning today to lose tomorrow is useless. Our rights and our place in American society and the world as a whole is not something that should be subject to the changing winds of politics or capricious pop culture. We must attack the source of the problem and wipe it out--it is without question the opposition's goal is to do the same to us. Why this has so long been a lost idea to our side for so long I have no clue but the cluelessness of too many on our side to this reality has got to stop.
Almost all here know how the problem exists in these areas I address, but we're too busy fighting the products rather than the process. Guess what, folks, the process is going to keep producing the problems until we shut down the factory.
Case in point: BHO is a product of the factory which you can clearly see he went directly from education to law to anti 2A org to politics--breaking the mechanism would have shut him down, possibly had him on our side instead, defunded the organizations, stripped them of members and influence, removed the influence upon doctors and lawyers to get them to contribute portions of some of the nation's top incomes to anti RKBA orgs and candidates, shut down the spin factories, and made there be little anti RKBA influenced electorate via institutional brainwashing. Cost? A few scholarships of $10-30k, a few internship salaries and perks bumped up another $5k, a 51% stake in a newspaper or two that right now is selling for pennies on the dollar, sponsored spots in a non hunting/shooting mag or three, lobbying in university boards to reverse certain policies and prevent certain types from getting funding and tenure, and a little gladhanding in places that aren't usually in the limelight. DIRT CHEAP compared to trying a high profile case, funding a political campaign which win means little and lose means nothing, or a ballot measure. And fractions of a penny compared to the hundreds of millions of dollars which got that puppet elected.
Just suggesting we try something different in addition to what we already do. What the NRA does isn't wrong, but it is insufficient. Not that they're doing the right things at insufficient levels--they are constrained by how much can be done at a time and perhaps over cautiousness--but also that there's more work to be done that isn't being done at the moment. Thoughts anyone?
In short we need to kick the anti gun establishment out of its nests and thereby eradicate it as an influential ideological and political force. Not until we start doing that will we be rid of it--and being rid of it rather than merely playing ping pong with it needs to be our long term goal. Sure, keep doing what we're doing in the courts and the legislature, but we need much deeper, much more permanent solutions to the problem which will squelch its recurrence by cutting it out from the source. We need to transition from a Vietnam War approach--see an enemy, squash it, wait till another one pops up, but go little further--to a World War 2 approach which is attack the enemy's weapons and its infrastructure, directly eliminating its ability to continue to fight not just the next day but ever again at all. Winning today to lose tomorrow is useless. Our rights and our place in American society and the world as a whole is not something that should be subject to the changing winds of politics or capricious pop culture. We must attack the source of the problem and wipe it out--it is without question the opposition's goal is to do the same to us. Why this has so long been a lost idea to our side for so long I have no clue but the cluelessness of too many on our side to this reality has got to stop.
Almost all here know how the problem exists in these areas I address, but we're too busy fighting the products rather than the process. Guess what, folks, the process is going to keep producing the problems until we shut down the factory.
Case in point: BHO is a product of the factory which you can clearly see he went directly from education to law to anti 2A org to politics--breaking the mechanism would have shut him down, possibly had him on our side instead, defunded the organizations, stripped them of members and influence, removed the influence upon doctors and lawyers to get them to contribute portions of some of the nation's top incomes to anti RKBA orgs and candidates, shut down the spin factories, and made there be little anti RKBA influenced electorate via institutional brainwashing. Cost? A few scholarships of $10-30k, a few internship salaries and perks bumped up another $5k, a 51% stake in a newspaper or two that right now is selling for pennies on the dollar, sponsored spots in a non hunting/shooting mag or three, lobbying in university boards to reverse certain policies and prevent certain types from getting funding and tenure, and a little gladhanding in places that aren't usually in the limelight. DIRT CHEAP compared to trying a high profile case, funding a political campaign which win means little and lose means nothing, or a ballot measure. And fractions of a penny compared to the hundreds of millions of dollars which got that puppet elected.
Just suggesting we try something different in addition to what we already do. What the NRA does isn't wrong, but it is insufficient. Not that they're doing the right things at insufficient levels--they are constrained by how much can be done at a time and perhaps over cautiousness--but also that there's more work to be done that isn't being done at the moment. Thoughts anyone?
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johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Wait, are you promoing a third option Yellowfin? Do you have such an organization? I am sold.
Can we somehow mix in asymetric warfare? Legalize pot and give out a highpoint with each bag so the hippies turn to our side or kill themselves off? I could deal with pot smoking gun loving hippy. Would probably be better than a drunk redneck actually. If not I am still on board.
Can we somehow mix in asymetric warfare? Legalize pot and give out a highpoint with each bag so the hippies turn to our side or kill themselves off? I could deal with pot smoking gun loving hippy. Would probably be better than a drunk redneck actually. If not I am still on board.
I think the NRA does more good than damage personally. They educate lots of folk, help support gun ranges, created high power matches (which use those pesky AR-15s, M1s, M1As and M1 carbines AWs all). Do they compromise more than I would like ideally from my libertarian viewpoint, yep. Do I understand why, yep. I am a member of the NRA and JPFO, I send money to the CATO institute and NRA-ILA and am planning to donate to the SAF. The NRA is the 800 pound gorilla of D.C. lobbying organizations which is the main reason I am a member. I send money to CATO because they have a track record of success promoting libertarian ideals. I am a member of the JPFO because I need to support a no compromise group also or I'll feel all dirty like I did voting for McCain. I am not a member of GOA because I'm already helping support one rabid pit bull organization and they are local to me.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
JPFO seems like the best one to me really. I just didn't join them b/c, you know, I'm not Jewish. I felt like I wasn't invited.
EDIT: I just decided that I have had two Jewish roommates and that makes me jewish enough. Lifetime member of JPFO come tomorrow.
EDIT: I just decided that I have had two Jewish roommates and that makes me jewish enough. Lifetime member of JPFO come tomorrow.
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johnwilliamson062
Moderator
GOA does seems to get a bit emotional and jump on the bandwagon before anyone really knows where the wagon is headed. If they would wait a bit until more details came out on some stories it would probably serve them well. I still prefer my hot headed bull dog to the NRA.
Sugar Lobby
Cuban Lobby
Both are much smaller than the gun lobby, but get what they want because they will not compromise or stop.
Sugar Lobby
Cuban Lobby
Both are much smaller than the gun lobby, but get what they want because they will not compromise or stop.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
This isn't clear to me. If you meant that funding for projects that have scholarly or scientific merit and nothing to do with gun shouldn't be granted because of 2nd Amend. beliefs of the researcher, I would strongly disagree.
Also, research on firearms issues should be empirically based on peer reviewed evaluations of the merit of the project.
We've had TOO much ideology in the management of science lately.
LucifersPants
Moderator
Amen...but good luck getting rid of it. It's the new academia...College campuses have become festering sewers for pushing social or political agendas. All of them hi-jacking 'science' to 'prove' ideas that are either opinion or faith-based, or those that are entirely subjective or impossible to quantify. Another generation or two and the term 'science' may very well be meaningless. "Creation science" comes to mind.
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Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
The Sugar lobby and the Cuba lobby are disproporionately powerful because they can deliver a swing state with significant electoral votes (or at least create that impression and keep it from being challenged). Their success has nothing to do with their willingness to compromise or lack of it. They are successful because they negotiate from a position of power.
The NRA has a more difficult task as getting gun owners to act cohesively is a task that makes herding cats look tame by comparison. As long as there is even a perception that the NRA cannot deliver one or more large swing states or that gun owners can be easily mollified by vague platitudes about your support for the Second Amendment (despite a lifetime of opposition to it), the NRA will be dealing from a weaker, albeit still strong, position.
The NRA has a more difficult task as getting gun owners to act cohesively is a task that makes herding cats look tame by comparison. As long as there is even a perception that the NRA cannot deliver one or more large swing states or that gun owners can be easily mollified by vague platitudes about your support for the Second Amendment (despite a lifetime of opposition to it), the NRA will be dealing from a weaker, albeit still strong, position.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
If the key is controlling a swing state(and I agree it is), why doesn't the NRA put any money into that? Just send a mailing out that says everyone that is able should move to Florida, Ohio and wherever else. Most people are locked into a location, but many "self sufficient" people are not. Surprisingly NRA membership overlaps greatly with that group of people.