Bill DeShivs
New member
Pepper spray.
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Not all fights are gunfights
- Thread starter ghbucky
- Start date
The flashlight is a great suggestion. I keep my keys on a carabiner latched to a belt loop. Lots of muscle memory with unclipping and handling.
One tactic I practice is tossing them at an attacker's upper torso underhand followed by a kick to the groin or kneecap. I figure the keys flying at them might engage their hands and distract them for a second.
I've found the usual disadvantages with aging. However one advantage is that my pride allows me to walk away from situations that I engaged in when I was young.
One tactic I practice is tossing them at an attacker's upper torso underhand followed by a kick to the groin or kneecap. I figure the keys flying at them might engage their hands and distract them for a second.
I've found the usual disadvantages with aging. However one advantage is that my pride allows me to walk away from situations that I engaged in when I was young.
There are plenty of people with the moral high ground who are sitting in prison.
Absolutely true! You don't have to read too many books by reputable experts on this subject (e.g. Massad Ayoob) to know this is true. In many states, any defense of your life, regardless of how justified, is going to automatically require thousands and thousands, if not millions of dollars. And the sad thing is that juries don't always dispense justice. If the plaintiff lawyer can convince them that you are a "gun nut" that was just looking for an opportunity to use a firearm in self-defense, even if you did, you could be convicted and go to prison. Just look at that couple in St. Louis recently! Tell me how a prosecutor could even think about going after them? It's beyond my comprehension to fathom.
Bottom line in my case anyway is that if there is any way at all possible to avoid a conflict of any type, that's going to be my choice. I can't run very fast at 70 years old but I can still think and I can still hear and see. And lastly, I'm glad I live in Texas where the odds are in my favor that the laws at least lean in the favor of the innocent and any jury (God forbid) that would ever judge me would have at least some chance of not being totally anti-Second Amendment!
Absolutely true! You don't have to read too many books by reputable experts on this subject (e.g. Massad Ayoob) to know this is true. In many states, any defense of your life, regardless of how justified, is going to automatically require thousands and thousands, if not millions of dollars. And the sad thing is that juries don't always dispense justice. If the plaintiff lawyer can convince them that you are a "gun nut" that was just looking for an opportunity to use a firearm in self-defense, even if you did, you could be convicted and go to prison. Just look at that couple in St. Louis recently! Tell me how a prosecutor could even think about going after them? It's beyond my comprehension to fathom.
Bottom line in my case anyway is that if there is any way at all possible to avoid a conflict of any type, that's going to be my choice. I can't run very fast at 70 years old but I can still think and I can still hear and see. And lastly, I'm glad I live in Texas where the odds are in my favor that the laws at least lean in the favor of the innocent and any jury (God forbid) that would ever judge me would have at least some chance of not being totally anti-Second Amendment!
So this thread is still active! An Update, I am aged 84, Carry a Glock 19 4th Gen every day. Had two stents fitted in 2011. So that puts me in the catagary of having a heart condition. Most likely seeing me whipped off to a hospital after any kind of gun activity. Plus I do prescribe to an insurance group who have a Lawyer on call, with experience in self defence with firearms law.
I also ran my own company, teaching self defence with handguns, first with Revolvers, then with Glock pistols in Canada for 25 years.
Clients, Armoured Car Companys, Armed Security Companys, Police and Military.
I have been in Canadian Courts, as an Expert Witness on quite a number of occassions.
My advice on speaking to Police after a violent firearms incedent, yes speak to the responding Officers, but not with your life story! But at least with your ID and contact information.
Reference modifications to your carried, self defense pistol. I agree with most instructors, night sights are fine, 2lb triggers, not so much!
I also ran my own company, teaching self defence with handguns, first with Revolvers, then with Glock pistols in Canada for 25 years.
Clients, Armoured Car Companys, Armed Security Companys, Police and Military.
I have been in Canadian Courts, as an Expert Witness on quite a number of occassions.
My advice on speaking to Police after a violent firearms incedent, yes speak to the responding Officers, but not with your life story! But at least with your ID and contact information.
Reference modifications to your carried, self defense pistol. I agree with most instructors, night sights are fine, 2lb triggers, not so much!
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Don't fight till its time to kill or die.
No offense but that strikes me as vague and seriously oversimplified.
Maybe apply for some shooters insurance. At least they might be able to get you bailed out pending trial.
How so? Leave. Retreat. Give up stuff. Let words slide by.
So far,violence can be avoided.
These days,if you go down,kicks to the head can be expected. I'm 68. I'm not going to play that game.
I will endure tremendous indignity to avoid violence. Maybe thats the difference between you and I.
Maybe if I trash talk your mother you have to fight.
I recognise I carry a deadly force instrument, I will find any way I can out of violence.
I've made it to 68 with never pulling a gun on anyone for any reason.
More than 10 years ago ,I was not armed. I was ignoring a fight till I saw a women punched. She went down and out. I gave the guy about three to the solar plexus and my best right to the temple.We mutually disengaged. I had long hair and a beard I did not want him to grab.I'm no martial artist.
It took a few minutes for his brain to bleed before he went out.He scored 7 misdemeanors,a felony,and a restraining order.
I'm too old for that now. My legs are damaged,I can't run. I can use Wisdom.
If violence upon me is inevitable,you tell me just how in the hell I know ahead of time if it will be fatal or cause me great harm?
Hindsight won't do.
The scenario is this. I have no choice. Shoot or take a beat down.
You tell me what meets your approval
So far,violence can be avoided.
These days,if you go down,kicks to the head can be expected. I'm 68. I'm not going to play that game.
I will endure tremendous indignity to avoid violence. Maybe thats the difference between you and I.
Maybe if I trash talk your mother you have to fight.
I recognise I carry a deadly force instrument, I will find any way I can out of violence.
I've made it to 68 with never pulling a gun on anyone for any reason.
More than 10 years ago ,I was not armed. I was ignoring a fight till I saw a women punched. She went down and out. I gave the guy about three to the solar plexus and my best right to the temple.We mutually disengaged. I had long hair and a beard I did not want him to grab.I'm no martial artist.
It took a few minutes for his brain to bleed before he went out.He scored 7 misdemeanors,a felony,and a restraining order.
I'm too old for that now. My legs are damaged,I can't run. I can use Wisdom.
If violence upon me is inevitable,you tell me just how in the hell I know ahead of time if it will be fatal or cause me great harm?
Hindsight won't do.
The scenario is this. I have no choice. Shoot or take a beat down.
You tell me what meets your approval
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Rangerrich99
New member
I guess it depends on what state you're in or who is involved.
Not that long ago a civilian here in the Phoenix area rescued a state trooper from being beaten to death. Long story short, he happened to be driving by, saw the perp on top of the ST officer, beating his head against the ground, so he stopped and ended up shooting the guy to save the ST.
He was never charged or arrested, and he never went to trial for shooting and killing essentially an unarmed man.
And I've been told numerous times in classes that I can legally defend others with my gun, even against an unarmed BG, if that BG is what I would consider a physical danger to whoever he's attacking/threatening.
Not that long ago a civilian here in the Phoenix area rescued a state trooper from being beaten to death. Long story short, he happened to be driving by, saw the perp on top of the ST officer, beating his head against the ground, so he stopped and ended up shooting the guy to save the ST.
He was never charged or arrested, and he never went to trial for shooting and killing essentially an unarmed man.
And I've been told numerous times in classes that I can legally defend others with my gun, even against an unarmed BG, if that BG is what I would consider a physical danger to whoever he's attacking/threatening.
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Not that long ago a civilian here in the Phoenix area rescued a state trooper from being beaten to death. Long story short, he happened to be driving by, saw the perp on top of the ST officer, beating his head against the ground, so he stopped and ended up shooting the guy to save the ST.
I've thought about these scenarios. In my state, I may use force to defend myself (and self is considered family) against serious threat, great bodily harm, etc... based on MY perception of what is happening.
But, if I use force to defend another, my perception of the events no longer matters. Now the only thing that matters is the facts of the event.
So, if I roll up on 2 people, and 1 is holding the other at gunpoint and I shoot the guy, who turns out to be a plain clothes detective, I'm very likely to spend the rest of my life in prison.
Don Fischer
New member
How so? Leave. Retreat. Give up stuff. Let words slide by.
So far,violence can be avoided.
These days,if you go down,kicks to the head can be expected. I'm 68. I'm not going to play that game.
I will endure tremendous indignity to avoid violence. Maybe thats the difference between you and I.
Maybe if I trash talk your mother you have to fight.
I recognise I carry a deadly force instrument, I will find any way I can out of violence.
I've made it to 68 with never pulling a gun on anyone for any reason.
More than 10 years ago ,I was not armed. I was ignoring a fight till I saw a women punched. She went down and out. I gave the guy about three to the solar plexus and my best right to the temple.We mutually disengaged. I had long hair and a beard I did not want him to grab.I'm no martial artist.
It took a few minutes for his brain to bleed before he went out.He scored 7 misdemeanors,a felony,and a restraining order.
I'm too old for that now. My legs are damaged,I can't run. I can use Wisdom.
If violence upon me is inevitable,you tell me just how in the hell I know ahead of time if it will be fatal or cause me great harm?
Hindsight won't do.
The scenario is this. I have no choice. Shoot or take a beat down.
You tell me what meets your approval
I'm 74 and couldn't agree more. I was pretty tuff when I was even in my lte 40's, that was long ago! Driving 49 states and Canada most my life into every h*ll hole in the country taught me to avoid situations, I do that. I'm really don't want to have to shoot anyone but if I do I shoot till I'm sure your dead. If no one's around I then leave you to be found by someone else. I'm not rich and can't afford a court battle with some hoodlum that didn't die or his family that think's he was a boy scout. I firmly believe laws are made to protect criminals! I think the bottom line is none of us with out battlefield experience has a clue if we'll even pull the trigger until the time come's to do it. Killing another person is a pretty final thing!If you have an opinion just say it. Feel free to change your mind if the time to shoot ever come's!
BTW, if you get into a fight with me you can expect it's a gun fight, I'm an old man with an attitude!
I like you (and your attitude) Don!I'm 74 and couldn't agree more.
...
BTW, if you get into a fight with me you can expect it's a gun fight, I'm an old man with an attitude!
Frank, (Pre disclaimer) we are not your client and you are not our lawyer, ...
But if you had a client who was ***just*** involved in a shooting seconds ago, what advice would you give them?
My response as a self diagnosed internet expert is;
"I was attacked, feared for my life and had to defend myself."
"Please send BOTH police and an ambulance to this location."
THEN CALL YOUR LEGAL DEFENSE!
FireForged
New member
I was attacked, feared for my life and had to defend myself."
and I hope that you could qualify that claim to the degree that others agree with you. Plenty of people have made the claim
and I hope that you could qualify that claim to the degree that others agree with you. Plenty of people have made the claim
You don't "qualify" anything after stating "I was attacked, feared for my life and had to defend myself" and "Please send BOTH police and an ambulance to this location", FireForged. Other than maybe point out evidence like the weapon the assailant used or tried to use against you and/or witnesses at the scene. You then CALL YOUR LAWYER and say nothing more until you've consulted with your attorney.
The whle purpose of carrying a defensive pistol is to defend yourself against an attack. A defense that warrants the use of a firearm.
My everyday carry, a Glock 19 4th Gen with bright green 3 dot TruGlo steel night sights. Show up well, in poor light, or daylight.
It hides well under a Florida shirt! Thats all I wear in summer, big sweater when it's cold, or a raincoat in the rainy season.
With this shocking pandemic, we are mostly housebound my Wife and I.
Second wife, 28 years now married. Very happy, my job, protecting that lovely lady.
It seems like the average adult male in this wonderful new country of ours, the USA (we have lived in Florida since 2004) is somewhat reluctant to throw the first punch, fire the first shot. Me? not so much. Having spent 5 years as a Door Man (Bouncer) in Liverpool UK Night Clubs.
Advice, do not wait to be hit! Spoken by a man with no broken nose.
Of course, that was 1960 to 65, a whole new ball game in these times. In this time, as I go about with my Glock 19, I also have a coverage in the form of a $300.00 a year Insurance Policy, that has a Lawyer well versed in self defense when firearms have been deployed.
This policy is in place, the same as the Glock 19 is carried... Just in case!
My everyday carry, a Glock 19 4th Gen with bright green 3 dot TruGlo steel night sights. Show up well, in poor light, or daylight.
It hides well under a Florida shirt! Thats all I wear in summer, big sweater when it's cold, or a raincoat in the rainy season.
With this shocking pandemic, we are mostly housebound my Wife and I.
Second wife, 28 years now married. Very happy, my job, protecting that lovely lady.
It seems like the average adult male in this wonderful new country of ours, the USA (we have lived in Florida since 2004) is somewhat reluctant to throw the first punch, fire the first shot. Me? not so much. Having spent 5 years as a Door Man (Bouncer) in Liverpool UK Night Clubs.
Advice, do not wait to be hit! Spoken by a man with no broken nose.
Of course, that was 1960 to 65, a whole new ball game in these times. In this time, as I go about with my Glock 19, I also have a coverage in the form of a $300.00 a year Insurance Policy, that has a Lawyer well versed in self defense when firearms have been deployed.
This policy is in place, the same as the Glock 19 is carried... Just in case!
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FireForged
New member
You don't "qualify" anything after stating "I was attacked, feared for my life and had to defend myself" and "Please send BOTH police and an ambulance to this location", FireForged. Other than maybe point out evidence like the weapon the assailant used or tried to use against you and/or witnesses at the scene. You then CALL YOUR LAWYER and say nothing more until you've consulted with your attorney.
Brother.. I am speaking in a broader sense. I didnt mean to imply that a person might hold court at the scene. I assumed that went without saying.
Whether or not such a level of force was authorized by law will likely be decided formally by someone other than yourself. If the situation should develop into a legal entanglement ( such as a trial), there would undoubtedly be two opposing viewpoints.
I was merely suggesting that anyone can claim anything and the claim alone does not necessarily settle the matter. My further commentary was simply intended to say that I wish any innocent victim in such a circumstance, good luck.
eviltravis
New member
I've been a martial arts instructor for years. Many people are shocked to discover on their first day at the dojo that a certain level of fitness is required to even participate in the basic class. The American diet and lifestyle has turned most healthy young people that are suppose to be in the prime fighting shape of their life into helpless dough boys and girls. If ever there was a requirement for people seeking self defense options, first and foremost should be basic fitness. People with disabilities and age limitations of course will always be at a disadvantage, but that is expected. Self-imposed disabilities, like obesity, unnecessarily eliminate most viable self defense options. If you can't run a half of a mile without having a heart attack, your not going to be a great candidate for surviving a violent encounter. Self defense encompasses so much more than a single certain technique or tool. Firearms are regarded as the "end all, be all" of self defense in our culture - I think that our televisions may have taught us this. The gun is really a very limited tool. It's a one trick pony that requires ammunition, training, and very specific circumstances to be effective. I know that this is a gun forum, but really - the gun should be one of the smaller tools in the self defense minded individuals tool box. Someone mentioned that multiple police sometimes have trouble restraining a single determined individual - I've worked with police. They receive pretty limited training, and not all cops are self defense enthusiasts... or even firearm enthusiasts for that matter. That determined individual that's taking the cops to the rodeo has a lesson to teach us all - Self defense has a lot to do with mindset... and fitness. Not all fights are gunfights - It's true.
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