New to reloading

[JLC1073]

Hey everyone
New to reloading here and I've got some questions.

I'm using a Lee precision pro 4000 press.
My first initial loads were with new brass purchased online. I weighed each cartridge pre and post priming and after charging with powder. All my brass selected for my first run weighed in the 98 grain mark. After priming they were in the upper 101 to 102 grain mark. And after charging they were in the upper 125 to upper 127 grain
range. Doing a difference post charging to the weight post priming showed me a difference between 24.8 to 25.6. I have my powder delivery set up to 25.3 +/-.1 grain with a rare occasional. +/-.2 after checking loads of times
before my first run. My powder charge per the table on the package shows 25.3 for 223 with a 55grain bullet.

My question is what should my tolerances be. I've seen nothing on the powder manufactures table with tolerance values for powder charge. What is a safe variance for 223 with 55 grain bullet?
As stated starting out too i only used new cartridges in the 28 grain range. My cartridges varied in weight too.
Is there a cartridge tolerance I should go by as well.
I know precision shooters prefer constant weights of cartridges, powder and bullets to retain higher accuracy on target in their loads.

Any help appreciated

 

[Sevens]

I like to hear that you are paying very close attention to details, this is a good sign. However, at the same time, I think you are going about this all wrong and you will cause yourself heartburn and for no good reason.

Weighing loaded cartridges is an exercise in futility with the stacking of tolerances. You will find variances in all four components that make up your loaded round AND there's a point at which I would also question how you are weighing these and if you are seeing a variance in the reported weight caused by your scale or your technique.

Progressive loading is certainly a fine way to make ammo but you won't find many absolute rifle accuracy fiends to be loading on progressive machines.

I will suggest that if you are buying bullets from a very well known and successful rifle bullet manufacturer, the variance of their weight is not going to be any issue for you.

I'll also suggest that finding a way to dispense a powder charge outside the fully progressive operation is more likely to get you a consistent powder charge weight. You'll also find that some rifle powders simply don't care about small variances in charge weight (even when we do!) and will perform admirably in a working range.

What is a safe variance for 223 with 55 grain bullet?

Given there are easily more than a dozen different powders with published loads, each of which uses a different charge weight, there's no single answer for this question and as you did not tell us which powder we're using, we couldn't even guess. Further, different published sources will list slightly different ranges even if we know the powder.

My suggestion to you would be to take the powder you're using, source multiple different published loads matching your bullet weight and construction, see how the maximum published loads compare, and then reduce whichever max load you choose by 5 or more percent to start.

If you're brand new at handloading, your first goal is to make safe loads. Your next goal is to make operational loads. Your third goal might be to make accurate loads.

Depending on what ammo you've used up to this point, you might find what many (most?) of us have found and that is you'll be pretty happy very early in this journey.

 

[GeauxTide]

Implant the term Variability into your brain. There are variables with each bullet, powder, case, and primer loaded. I started in the 70s with a Speer, Lyman, Hornady, and Sierra manuals. I studied the manuals 6 months before getting any equipment. I visited with my dealer, who sold me a beginners set. I had a 7mm Weatherby LH, so we worked up a load with the recommended H4831. Then came the .357 and.........

 

[snoeproe]

I weigh my powder charges/loads. Not the entire cartridge. You’re overthinking it a little.
Brass can have inconsistencies in wall thickness etc. Seat your primers, verify your powder charges with a scale and set bullet depth 20thou off the lands if your using a bolt gun. Test your groups at the range and verify/log everything you do and the results.

 

[Sevens]

verify/log everything you do and the results.

Excellent tip and it isn’t as obvious as it should be.

If you make something good, you will want to refine it. If you make something great, you will want to repeat it. If you make something lousy, you definitely want to avoid doing it again.

Keeping a detailed log is instrumental for these goals. I use an Excel spreadsheet.

 

[JLC1073]

So
My bad on not posting the powder brand! I ment to do that. I'm using Hodgdon H335.
So right now I just want safe reliable reloads for range shooting..
For 223 with a 55 grain bullet the powder says to use a 25.3 grain charge.
I've got my powder charge dialed in to 25.3 +/- at most .2 of that.

So I guess what is the tolerance for the powder?
Generic brass and fmj bullets. CCI primers.

What is a safe v/s an unsafe overloaded cartridge

And are new hand loads / reloads ok for semi auto shooting?

Just wanna be sure I dont destroy a rifle or worse damage myself!

Thanks
John

 

[Unclenick]

JLC1073,

Welcome to the forum. Please pop over to this thread and introduce yourself.

You asked what a safe variance for powder charge is. I think you meant variation. Variance is a statistics term referring to the square of deviation from the mean. Probably not what you wanted. I expect you want to know how far your powder charge can vary from the average output of the powder measure and still be safe.

If physical safety (not blowing the gun up) is what you mean by safe, the answer is generally more than any powder measure's possible deviation if it is in good working order. However, some cases are weaker than others, some primer cups are softer than others, and some chambers have more head clearance than others, so you want to work up from the lowest listed load in steps that are about 2% of the maximum listed charge weight. If you get a clear pressure sign, back off 5%. So, start at Hodgdon's recommended 23 grains and work up to 25.3 in 0.4-grain steps to check that no pressure signs appear in your gun. If 25.3 is safe, but maximum, in your gun, it would take just over 2 grains of increase to get close to the bottom of the proof load range. It can be tempting to work up toward proof pressures to see what the gun can do, but it exponentially increases throat wear and just isn't great for gun or case life. It's an emergency security blanket from the standpoint of the steel the gun is made from being able to withstand it, but cases and primers can blow out and cause damage before the chamber steel gives out.

If by "safe," you meant not going to affect precision (group size), then this varies with the component and gun combination and has no fixed answer. You want to look for a load that groups the same over a span of half a grain or more and then load for the middle of the range, as these are usually going to make the smallest groups. No guarantees, but it's a starting point.

 

[JLC1073]

Hodgdons H335

So the 25.3 grains of powder on the front of their bottle is top end load data for a 55 grain bullet while treating all casings roughly the same.

I see alot of load data spaciffic for X manufacturers casing with Y manufacturers bullet and Z manufacturers primer.

I dont see where they are covering every manufacturers parts and pices.

I see alot of posts stating 23 grains for the H335 powder.

Should I be starting there first?

 

[hooligan1]

The Bullet Makers manual is where I start, after I have bullet selection. I go by what they prescribe.. And match it as closely as humanly possible..

 

[jetinteriorguy]

If the source you’re using only gives a single charge that’s generally considered a max charge. Reduce this by 10% and work your way up 01% per load shooting five rounds of each load. Watch for pressure signs and accuracy in your rifle. Research how to read pressure signs, while not an exact science it’s an important skill to learn and if your doubtful about an over pressure load then just don’t go there, better safe than sorry. In a general sense using reliable published data won’t cause a catastrophic failure but might just be too high and cause unwanted stress on your firearm that with a lot of repetition can eventually cause a failure.

 

[olduser]

I haven't seen any mention of your using a reloading manual. Anyone beginning reloading should obtain a name brand manual and read it from cover to cover. The Lyman is a good start and the manual published by your bullet maker will be about as good as it gets.
If you are using the label data from the powder you are using it could cause a problem as others have pointed out it is considered a max load.

 

[snoeproe]

Your reloading manual will show min and max charges for your powder type and bullet your using. I use 2 manuals. Follow your manual as it’s been verified already by others.
Im currently using H335 in our 222rem reloads.

 

[cdoc42]

For any given caliber and bullet in MY rifle (or handgun) I review the maximum pressure and the lowest pressure listed in the manual I'm reading. Pick the one with the highest velocity and lowest pressure. That's how I pick a powder for a new load. Be certain the pressure is the same - Pound per square inch or Copper Unit Preure. They are not interchangeable. Then start with the initial powder charge and move up as described above.

(For some reason, common letter and number not print a I type; I must use Grammarly to correct it, if I can.....???? I can't tell you hat they are becaue they on't print.

 

[CleanDean]

You will enjoy the self satisfaction of being the craft technician. ( Homo Faber)
That is , until you have a whole crapload of bottlenecked brass that is filthy , tarnished ,& they all need trimming.
I’m at the point if they are like that … I buy new , or reprocessed , that are pre-primed.

 

[JLC1073]

Old user

Thats part of my problem. Looking at the manuals I cant find my manufacturer who i bought bullets from. I have emailed them to see if thay have supporting load data on their bullets with H335 powder. This is what I get for buying stuff and missing the info so to speak.

 

[JLC1073]

So my second question to the last comment left by me above. Please no flaming either.

Whats the big difference from manufacturer to manufacturer if the bullet made by them is lets say 55 grain. Why do I see so many different charge specs between different bullet manufacturers using the same brand of powder? Isn't a 55 grain a 55 grain?

 

[sako2]

The shape and bearing surface.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

Old user

Thats part of my problem. Looking at the manuals I cant find my manufacturer who i bought bullets from. I have emailed them to see if thay have supporting load data on their bullets with H335 powder. This is what I get for buying stuff and missing the info so to speak.

This is why you start low and learn to read/feel pressure signs. As you gain more experience you can substitute load info on bullets of similar style and same weight but I wouldn’t suggest doing this until you have a lot more experience. You should also reference more than one source when possible and start out with the one with the lower data to be on the safe side. In this hobby start out crawling, then walk, and finally you can run. It just takes time, care, and experience. One last suggestion, try seek out an experienced mentor in your area. A good source for this is any local shooting range or club, always lots of us old farts hanging around in these places more than happy to share experience.

 

[Grey_Lion]

You are displaying what I call "appropriate paranoia" which is a good thing. Lots of great advice above - only two things I'd add. I won't use a powder dropper myself because it introduces several potential variables. I hand weigh each powder charge individually. For one thing, I've found an eyeglass screw mixed into a cheap brand of powder I no longer buy. With hand weighing the charge, you'll notice any inconsistancies in the charge that you'd never see in a powder dropper. Next piece - over time you're going to develop a feel for your equipment and your favorite loads. Given how much attention you demonstrate in your post, it sounds like your focus is good. Somewhere along the line you're going to "feel" something off... It's usually going to be a slight pressure difference in the press charging handle. The INSTANT you feel something is off - stop and inspect everything until you've found what's changed. For me it's almost always been a projectile out of spec or a case that wasn't as close to perfect as I'd like. Keep going - the two things you need to measure obsessively are what comes out of the barrel - the projectile & the powder charge. When those two things are well within spec, your results will be consistant.

 

[Unclenick]

Whats the big difference from manufacturer to manufacturer if the bullet made by them is lets say 55 grain. Why do I see so many different charge specs between different bullet manufacturers using the same brand of powder? Isn't a 55 grain a 55 grain?

The pressure reached in your gun depends in part on how fast the powder burn starts. This, in turn, depends on the size of the space it starts burning in and on how hard the bullet is for pressure to force it into the lands of the rifling, which gives it its engraving marks. In general:

A longer bullet uses up more space in the case, which tends to raise pressure. When a bullet is made of lower-density material, such as a copper solid, a frangible bullet, or a bullet with a steel penetrator instead of a solid lead core, it will have an overall lower density than a standard lead core jacketed bullet (aka, cup-and-core bullet). This will make it longer than a cup-and-core bullet, so it will have to be seated more deeply into the case to have the same finished cartridge overall length, and thus tends to raise pressure by taking up more space inside the case, causing the powder to start burning in a smaller space, which makes it burn faster, thus raising pressure.

If a bullet is made of a hard material, like a copper solid, it can require additional pressure to force it through the throat of the barrel and get the rifling to impress (usually called engraving, but is really a form of swaging) its marks into the bullet surface. It has to be able to do that so the bullet can continue down the barrel, and the rifling will impart spin to it. So the bullets can actually hesitate in the throat as the higher necessary "engraving" force builds up, and this speeds up the burn of the powder and raises pressure. This used to be a bigger problem with solids when they had smooth sides. Today, most have the small driving bands formed into them to cut down the required engraving force and make a bit less difference in charge weight, though they still take up more space in the case.

Allan Jones had an article a while back in which he described a customer having called Speer to say their load data was no good. He based this on using their max load (he'd never started at the bottom) for a 175-grain 0.284" Speer cup-and-core design and found he got very sticky bolt lift. After some back and forth, it turned out the fellow was loading a Barnes bullet (copper solid) and not the Speer bullet the load data was developed with. He had the customer measure that bullet and found it was a quarter of an inch longer than the same-weight cup-and-core Speer bullet the load data had been developed with. Mystery solved. He directed the fellow to look at Barnes data and use that and suggested that this time he start with the bottom load and work up.