new to progressive. need help choosing press

[Greg Mercurio]

I had no idea how disadvantaged I was with my RL550B. Not having a powder check die means being visually involved with the process. Manual indexing makes me more involved with the process as well. Different strokes I guess.

That said, with multiple 10's of thousands of loads made in multiple calibers on 2 Square Deal's and a RL550B, I prefer the Dillon machines. To be fair, I've never used another brand of progressive, so comparisons aren't available. But when there's a problem, the solution is 1 phone call away.

For reference, I also have 4 single stage presses for those calibers I load in low volume.

 

[snakyjake]

Where does the RCBS Pro Chuckers fit into this?

 

[THEWELSHM]

Hornady Lnl is a really underrated piece of kit with the Dillon peeps. There is a really good comparison on line that favor the lnl

Thewelshm

 

[Super Trooper]

Where does the RCBS Pro Chuckers fit into this?

They don't really, different class of reloader.

 

[TimW77]

Reading Comprehension?

"The L&L & the RL550 have different approaches to the same issue, changing calibers quickly."

Duh, perhaps you should try to reread what I wrote...

Just LOOK at the LnL and the Dillon 450 for yourself. EXACTLY as I wrote, the LnL looks MORE LIKE an updated Dillon 450 with a 5th stage added.


"It there was a side-by-side direct comparison..."

What? To compare, all you have to do is LOOK FOR YOURSELF...


"...which I don't think there is..."

Again, think again, JUST LOOK FOR YOURSELF...


"...the L&L would be an "RL 500" if such a beast existed."

You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about when it comes to Dillon products. There IS A Dillon 500!!!

Come on guy, get your facts straight, all you have to do is an internet search then try to comprehend what the words actually mean and what the photos are TRYING to tell you...


"Ohhhhh , did the Dillon 450 have:
- rigid quick change accurately aligned dies
- cheaper caliber conversions
- auto-indexing
- 5 stations
- ability to easily add case and bullet feeders"

Once again, DUH, do you have any idea what the word "updated" means...

Please look it up and then you would see these things are "UPDATES"


"- reasonable price for performance"

Have you ever actually compared prices of the LnL and Dillon presses EQUIPPED THE SAME?

Well I HAVE...

Don't have the current price difference in front of me BUT 2-3 years ago...

A LnL and the Dillon 650 (and NOT the 550) EQUIPPED THE SAME, the way I think most people would equip their presses, there was only a $9.00 difference in price!!!

Nothing wrong with the LnL, it is a good press but looked at honestly and unbiased, the Dillon 650 is a FAR BETTER DEAL and the 550 is actually CHEAPER!

T.

 

[jmorris]

Where does the RCBS Pro Chuckers fit into this?

Until they introduce a case feeder they won't compete with the case fed 650 or LNL. If they work better than the LNL case feed and they fix the primer slide problem they have, they could compete with the 650.

I wouldn't buy a Pro 2000 now as who knows how long they will support them now they have discontinued production.

 

[Real Gun]

I chose the Hornady LnL AP because it doesn't insist on having a case feeder like the comparable Dillon 650XL, so is less money getting started. I have since added a case feeder and other accessories, but the bare bones machine is very productive and a good transition from single stage. I do however do most of my loading on a Lee Turret because I don't shoot competition volumes.

 

[Real Gun]

People like to compare the LnL with the Dillon 550 or 650. In reality the LnL should be compared to the much older Dillon 450. The LnL IS just an updated 450 with a 5th stage added. Several generations behind the Dillon 650.

I've only heard one complaint from Dillon 550 owners...
They wish they would have bought a Dillon 650 instead!!!

I don't think the comparison to a 45O, updated if you will, is an important point, certainly not a call to abuse another poster over it. The LnL AP and Dillon 650 are directly comparable in the most significant features. The exact mechanisms are not what people usually compare, seems to me. It has been posted here that the two machines are only a few dollars apart when comparably equipped.

 

[wogpotter]

I chose the Hornady LnL AP because it doesn't insist on having a case feeder like the Dillon

I don't understand, my 450 & my 550 run just fine without a case feeder. Why do you think the Dillons insist on one?

 

[wogpotter]

Tim.
Time to switch to decaf, dude.

"...the L&L would be an "RL 500" if such a beast existed."

You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about when it comes to Dillon products. There IS A Dillon 500!!!

Perhaps you should contact Dillon Precision, they don't seem to be aware of that item?

 

[BigJimP]

I didn't say the 550 is a bad press....but the issue is the lack of a powder check die in it - or in any 4 station press.

Take an example ...using Hodgdon TiteGroup 115gr 9mm ..min is 4.5gr and max is 4.8gr....so the spread is 0.3gr/ personally my target using this recipe is 4.7gr...---and there is no way I can visually tell a case that is 4.4gr or 4.9 gr...consistently / let alone 4.5 or 4.6 gr vs my target load of 4.7gr.

If you think you can visually inspect a case filled with powder, in this recipe - or most any recipe....and tell its within spec, I think you're fooling yourself. But test it ....get a buddy to load up 10 cases.../ vary them by 0.1gr and visually inspect them for within or out of spec.../ and see if you can pick them out ( noone so far in the group of 20 or so guys I know that reload can reliably pick the right charges --- our eyes just can't see, in most powders, a variation of even 0.5gr.../ and a lot of those guys have used 550's for a long time -- but it doesn't make it a better press than one that has a powder check die, in my view.

Now the bulkier the powder you use - you can probably prevent double charges because it'll spill out of the case ...and you can mount a mirror to see into a case, to prevent a squib..or no charge.../ but a press with a powder check die, if its adjusted and your press is operating properly will alert you to variations of more than 0.1gr

I shoot - and reload - about 25,000 rds a year for handguns.../ the powder check die on a 650 gives me that extra sense of security that my ammo is within spec...and I want that extra benefit - I have adult kids and grandkids shooting that ammo too../and I sure don't want anything bad to happen.

A powder check die is not an excuse or a crutch for bad practices...it still needs to be periodically checked with a scale. But if I wanted to use a 550 then I sure would not use a powder like TiteGroup...I'd try and find a bulkier powder - and a powder with more variation between published min and max ..

But test yourself, see if you can pick out 0.3 gr variation in several cases...

 

[jmorris]

Valid points but I have never had a Dillon measure throw a charge of TG that was .3 gn off. That said on my 650's and 1050's I still use the PC die.

 

[cryogenic419]

Dillon and Hornady seem to be the top of the food chain.

Seems to be alot of Dillon love in this thread so far and its well deserved. They are solid and functional machines, not quite as finicky as a LNL AP. I don't own a Dillon press so I can't really comment on any quirks/issues they might have, but from what I have read is there are very very few.

LNL AP is a decent machine although it is known to have some quirks. Some of the more common problems I have heard about/actually seen people have is with the pawl adjustments/shellplate timing and priming issues. These are easily fixed with minor adjustments and then become a non issue. The primer plunger will leave a divot in the press that will eventually cause primer seating depth problems. Hornady dropped the ball on this and even after its been brought to their attention, has failed to truly fix the cause of this issue. I worked around it by using a 1" x 1" square of SS sheet superglued in place.Other folks have come up with other ways to fix the issue. Its not a make or break deal for some, others it could be. Other than that I have no issues with the machine, loads up accurate ammo everytime.

No matter what machine you end up with, pick up spare parts like springs. Dillon sells a spare parts kit last I knew. With Hornady you have to buy the parts individually. I opted to get a replacement for every spring, pawls and a drive hub. Haven't needed any of them yet except for the case retainer spring but its also been a few years and 15K+ rounds loaded.

A powder check die is a good idea. At first switching to progressive was a bit overwhelming, so I would put one piece of brass in the press and watch each step and make adjustments as needed to get the final setup. Once I was happy I would get more brass on the press at once time and make sure everything held where it was supposed to. Even if you load one brass at a time its going to be worlds faster than single stage ever was.

 

[45_auto]

For some reason some people seem to think that manual advance is an advantage. I don't understand why, but to each his own.

If you happen to feel that way but want the 5 positions of a 650 and the potential for auto advance in the future, it would literally take about 30 seconds to make a Dillon 650 into a manual advance machine. Remove the shellplate and lift the indexing pawl out of it's slot in the platform. Replace the shellplate. Be happy.

Indexing pawl that advances the shell plate is #18 on page 54 of the 650 manual:

http://dillonhelp.com/Dillon Manual PDFs/XL650v6p1.pdf

 

[wogpotter]

For some reason some people seem to think that manual advance is an advantage. I don't understand why, but to each his own.

Its simply that with a manual advance its easier to fix problems by just lowering the ram, fixing whatever went wrong & raising back to the same stations.

 

[jmorris]

I have both and don't see manual indexing as an advantage.

 

[condor bravo]

Removing the pawl seems the way to go with the 650. Then presumably you.can also back up. Why hasn't someone.mentioned this earlier? But with over 20 toolheads the cost for a changeover now would be prohibitive.

 

[BigJimP]

The reason I never mentioned removing the indexing pall ...is because I think auto indexing is a plus ( I hear guys too often say, they got distracted by the kids, the dog, the phone ---or whatever )....and that must be why they had an overcharge or an undercharge.

Manually indexing...in any kind of a repetitive process ...means you have one more step for potential human error. I tend to limit my loading sessions to no more than an hour - just to make sure my attention to detail doesn't wander too much / and a sign in my shop, proudly says its a cell phone free zone ( mostly to make sure the grandkids that range in age from 23 to 2 yrs old -- and their parents ...understand there needs to be some attention to detail in this room). And yes, I'm in my 60's ( so get off my lawn !)

Auto indexing isn't inherently dangerous...it is what it is.../ and Dillon's SDB, 650 and 1050 all have it ...and the 550 doesn't / but only the 650 and 1050 offer a powder check die option. That doesn't make the 550 an inherently bad option....as long as you understand what it is.

Most of my buddies that are still operating 550's bought them a long time ago...or even the SDB's.../ and a few of them have upgraded to 650's with a powder check ...some of them just realize they need to be a little more vigilant in terms of how the press is operating on powder drops / pick a powder with a little more variation between Min and Max.

The one instance where the powder check saved a buddy and I both...buddy was new to reloading, considering which machine to buy...and we were taking an advanced handgun class..and we needed 3,000 rds for the class...so with my tutoring him, I let him buy the components and use my 650 press...somewhere into an afternoon session, powder check starting indicating a variation in drops ( .45 acp 230gr load )...and we were seeing a swing of .02 low and .03 high...so we shut everything down / turns out there was a nut that had come loose on the powder measure so it was not operating consistently. But since we were using the "powder check" we had 100% confidence that every round we had made prior to the issue was within spec ( meaning we had to pull no bullets )...and no chance of a round that was out of spec / and I can't say something like that happens often.../ but having the powder check die, especially on handgun ammo, where I tend to load at least 10 boxes in one session - just gives me more confidence that my ammo is 100% --- and on that day, it proved its worth..

Not that we rely on powder check only....personally, whenever I set down to press...I weigh the first 10 charges...( if they are consistent) then about every 5th charge ...and if everything is right on....I only check one case about every 25 rounds...

 

[jmorris]

The 550 was the last progressive press I bought. Just wanted to bridge the gap between my other progressive presses and my turret presses.

 

[maillemaker]

I've never used anything but my Lee Pro 1000 for loading .45 ACP.

Now I know it is an entry-level machine. It is twitchy, and when the case feeder starts to run dry cases will bounce on the feed ramp and creep forward just enough to crash into the die holder plate on the up-stroke.

Likewise when primers bridge in the primer holder and the primer feed ramp runs about half-way dry it stops reliably feeding primers into cases; they often feed sideways.

I remedy both of these problems by manually doing a "thump" of the primer case on every stroke, and a manual "push back" of the case on every stroke. You get in the habit and rhythm of this easily during loading.

I'm sure the Dillon blows the doors off the Lee, but you are looking at about a $400+ difference in price. I can reload .45 ACP for about $4.50 per box of 50.

That means that for the cost difference I can load almost 4500 rounds of ammunition.

If I had the money, I'd get the Dillon. But that's a lot of ammo.

Steve