New Resident of GA looking to make a Purchase

[xandi]

Welcome to the free state of Georgia
You should stay we have all the fun items, hi-cap magazines ar15s with no bullet buttons and so fourth
You should stay(;

 

[g.willikers]

A big problem with buying guns "out of state" is the dealers.
Many don't trust their knowledge of the laws enough to want to sell a gun to anyone who doesn't have a conventional proof of residency, usually a drivers license.
Just from this conversation, can you blame them?

 

[Bluecthomas]

Just a question on those laws, assuming I win the lottery and buy a house in two states, and a car for the garage in both of them, complete with registration showing an address within that state, I could then buy guns in both?

I can't imagine not having a gun in the house. And traveling with a gun everywhere I go can be difficult.

Add in the simple fact that one house would be in comm... I mean California, with it's ridiculous laws on mag cap which I'm quickly growing to hate as a current NV resident, traveling with a gun could be a felony just for possession of large mags...

 

[Theohazard]

Just a question on those laws, assuming I win the lottery and buy a house in two states, and a car for the garage in both of them, complete with registration showing an address within that state, I could then buy guns in both?

Yes, the ATF specifically addresses this situation. Say -- for example -- you have a house in WA and also one in OR. While you're living in your house in WA you're treated as a WA resident and not an OR resident when buying a firearm. In fact, if you put your OR address on the 4473 during a period where you're actually living at your WA address, then that constitutes lying about your residency on the 4473.

ATF Ruling 2010-6 that Tom linked to addresses this. Also, the instructions on the back pages of the 4473 address it also:

If the transferee/buyer has two States of residence, the transferee/ buyer should list his/her current residence address in response to
question 2 (e.g., if the transferee/buyer is purchasing a firearm while staying at his/her weekend home in State X, he/she should list the address in State X in response to question 2).

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Just a question on those laws, assuming I win the lottery and buy a house in two states, and a car for the garage in both of them, complete with registration showing an address within that state, I could then buy guns in both?

Theohazard has already given you the link to the answer. You don't even need to have a car registered in each state. If you own houses in two states, as far as the BATFE is concerned you are a resident of whichever one you are living in at the instant of time in question. Yes, you can [legally] buy guns in both states.

 

[dogtown tom]

Aguila Blanca .....Theohazard has already given you the link to the answer. You don't even need to have a car registered in each state. If you own houses in two states, as far as the BATFE is concerned you are a resident of whichever one you are living in at the instant of time in question. Yes, you can [legally] buy guns in both states.

WRONG.
Ownership of property does not by itself establish residency.
You could own a home, rent a home, rent a townhouse........if you cannot produce the required documentation then you have not satisfied the requirements of Federal law.

Read Ruling 2010-6:

Held further, the intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

How does that BATFE statement in any way make what I wrote incorrect? The issue of how you demonstrate the validity of your second place of residence is secondary. The fundamental rule is that you can have multiple places of residence and the BATFE's determination is that, for the purposes of transferring firearms, you are a "resident" of whichever home you are living in at the time of the transfer.

Granted, if you own a rental property in another state that doesn't qualify. The second (or third, or fourth) home must be a place where you live for parts of each year.

 

[Minorcan]

It seems like "we have a failure to communicate."

The issue is we are dealing with two different levels of legislation. One is state, the other is federal and to make it even more obtuse the federal component involves ATF - gun control. (yes ATF is gun control no matter what the liberals say.)

For state purposes and voting you must have certain documentation like vehicle registration, voter registration, local utilities, etc. There is no federal counterpart to these. these are issued by the states. The federal gun laws are totally separate and that is why the items mentioned below aren't used to establish residence. Federal law depends on different criteria to establish residence. Criteria that are more vague than state definitions of residence. In case you are wondering why the state requirements are more strict try living in NY, CT, NJ, etc and say your residence is elsewhere. People try this to avoid paying their ridiculous taxes all the time they close the loopholes so they can take advantage of the people that live there. that's why I choose not to live in places like that.

Having said all of that, I have been denied purchase in a state where I was a residence using the federal restriction but the local dealer refused to file the form for permission for me to execute my 2A rights. It was cheaper to buy elsewhere than hire a lawyer to convenience the otherwise.

 

[ShootistPRS]

The ATF accepts only government issued proof of residency (as I understand it)

Question 18.a. Identification:
Before a licensee may sell or deliver a firearm to a nonlicensee, the licensee must establish the identity, place of residence, and age of the tansferee/buyer. The transferee/buyer must provide a valid government-
issued photo identification document to the transferor/seller that contains the
transferee's/buyer's name, residence address, and date of birth. A driver's license or an identification card issued by a State in place of a license is acceptable. Social Security cards are not acceptable because no address, date of birth, or photograph is shown on the cards. A combination of government-issued documents may be provided. See instructions for question 18.b. Supplemental Documentation.

Question 18.b. Supplemental Documentation:
Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the law. The required valid government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, and date of birth of transferee/buyer may be supplemented by another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee's/buyer's residence address. This supplemental documentation should be recorded in question 18.b., with the issuing authority and type of identification presented. For example, if the transferee/buyer has two States of residence and is trying to buy a handgun in State X, he may provide a driver's license
(showing his name, date of birth, and photograph)
issued by State Y and another government-issued document
(such as a tax document) from State X showing his residence address. A valid electronic document from a government website may be used as supplemental documentation provided it contains the transferee's/buyer's name and current residence address.

Is a utility bill a government issued document? My utility bill is issued by the utility company and not the city or state. I do pay property taxes and that is a government issued document. A person renting a home doesn't get a tax document because the person liable for the taxes is the owner.

It is, apparently, possible to have multiple residences in different states. It appears that just living in a state temporarily for a job assignment does not qualify unless you are in the armed forces. (which is addressed elsewhere)

 

[FITASC]

A person renting a home doesn't get a tax document because the person liable for the taxes is the owner.

But that person would have a copy of the lease.

If they have a job, there will be a pay stub showing an address as another possibility

 

[Theohazard]

It appears that just living in a state temporarily for a job assignment does not qualify

It would qualify if you're actually "making a home" there. Even if it's temporary. Again, ATF Ruling 2010-6 is quite clear on this. People keep getting hung up on the word "temporary", but here's the word in context from that Ruling:

Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.

It seems to me that it would be hard to convince a court that living somewhere for a few months on a temporary work assignment is a "transient act" that constitutes "temporary travel", especially considering the fact that the person must also demonstrate no intention of "making a home" in that state. We're specifically discussing situations where a person is actually making a home in a state. So, under federal firearms law -- and the ATF's interpretation of federal law -- that person is indeed a resident of that state, even if it's temporary.

Even if you're on a temporary work assignment, if you're doing the things that one would be expected to do when they're living somewhere (renting an apartment, traveling daily to a regular work assignment, sleeping there regularly, paying utility bills, etc.), it would be pretty hard to convince someone that you're not "making a home" there. And remember, if you're making a home in a state, then you're a resident of that state for the purposes of buying a firearm under federal law.

 

[ShootistPRS]

FITASC,
Neither a copy of a lease nor a check stub is a government document. That seems to be a clear requirement.

Theohazard,
Can you actually define a 9 month stay while being employed from out of state as an attempt to "make a home there"?
Making a home requires some kind of investment, living on property you own, or looking for property to buy, maybe? Does he have any intention to spend time in that state after the job he is doing is over? Will he spend a few months at his second home every year? It seems one must show an intent to make it a "home" in order to be a resident. Will he pay the state income tax? No because he is an out of state employee. If he was a resident he would be liable for the state taxes.

 

[FITASC]

No because he is an out of state employee.

Depends on the state - CA charges income tax on visiting pro athletes who come into the state to play........

 

[Minorcan]

Theohazard - Even if you're on a temporary work assignment, if you're doing the things that one would be expected to do when they're living somewhere (renting an apartment, traveling daily to a regular work assignment, sleeping there regularly, paying utility bills, etc.), it would be pretty hard to convince someone that you're not "making a home" there. And remember, if you're making a home in a state, then you're a resident of that state for the purposes of buying a firearm under federal law.

Again states can go both ways even in the same state. For example, even if you are only working a week or so some states try to declare you a temporary resident so they can collect state revenue taxes but then refuse to provide unemployment even though they earlier declared you a resident of the state. It's governments and they bend or interpret the rules for their gain not the citizens.

 

[dogtown tom]

Aguila Blanca How does that BATFE statement in any way make what I wrote incorrect?

You wrote: "....If you own houses in two states, as far as the BATFE is concerned you are a resident of whichever one you are living in at the instant of time in question."

Again, "ownership" of your residence is NOT required and has absolutely nothing to do with residency.

 

[dogtown tom]

ShootistPRS ...Is a utility bill a government issued document?

It is if issued by a government entity.

My utility bill is issued by the utility company and not the city or state.

Then you would need to use another government issued document.
My electric bill is from a business, but my water/sewer/garbage bill is from my city.

I do pay property taxes and that is a government issued document. A person renting a home doesn't get a tax document because the person liable for the taxes is the owner.

Correct, so a renter would need to find another document.

It is, apparently, possible to have multiple residences in different states. It appears that just living in a state temporarily for a job assignment does not qualify unless you are in the armed forces. (which is addressed elsewhere)

Good grief. Please reread ATF Ruling 2010-6.

 

[dogtown tom]

Minorcan Again states can go both ways even in the same state. For example, even if you are only working a week or so some states try to declare you a temporary resident so they can collect state revenue taxes but then refuse to provide unemployment even though they earlier declared you a resident of the state. It's governments and they bend or interpret the rules for their gain not the citizens.

What a particular state thinks, interprets or believes has absolutely NOTHING to do with Ruling 2010-6.

 

[Theohazard]

Theohazard,
Can you actually define a 9 month stay while being employed from out of state as an attempt to "make a home there"?

Yes, that's a classic example of "making a home" under the 1968 GCA. For the purpose of buying a firearm, think of it simply as where you live. If you're living somewhere, you're making a home there, even if it's temporary.

Making a home requires some kind of investment, living on property you own, or looking for property to buy, maybe?

Ownership of property isn't required to establish residency; the ATF explicitly says that in ATF Ruling 2010-6. In fact the ATF even allows an RVer to use the address of the spot where their RV is parked as their residence. Even a homeless person's tent on a street corner could qualify as a residence, but they would have to get some government-issued documentation of their tent's address to purchase a gun from an FFL.

Does he have any intention to spend time in that state after the job he is doing is over? Will he spend a few months at his second home every year? It seems one must show an intent to make it a "home" in order to be a resident. Will he pay the state income tax? No because he is an out of state employee. If he was a resident he would be liable for the state taxes.

You're way over-thinking this. Read ATF Ruling 2010-6 and 27 CFR 478.11; residency is actually super simple. It breaks down as simply as this: Where are you living right now at this moment? People need to stop over analyzing this, because this is one of the simplest parts of our federal firearms laws. Many people are confused with the federal residency requirements to buy a gun because they think it's way more complicated than it really is. But it's actually pretty simple: Do you currently live in state X? Then you're currently a resident of state X. That's it.

If you're living somewhere, even for a short period of time, then that's your residence. If you're visiting somewhere on a vacation, then that's not your residence.

 

[Theohazard]

Even if you're on a temporary work assignment, if you're doing the things that one would be expected to do when they're living somewhere (renting an apartment, traveling daily to a regular work assignment, sleeping there regularly, paying utility bills, etc.), it would be pretty hard to convince someone that you're not "making a home" there. And remember, if you're making a home in a state, then you're a resident of that state for the purposes of buying a firearm under federal law.

Again states can go both ways even in the same state. For example, even if you are only working a week or so some states try to declare you a temporary resident so they can collect state revenue taxes but then refuse to provide unemployment even though they earlier declared you a resident of the state. It's governments and they bend or interpret the rules for their gain not the citizens.

We're not talking about any state's definition of residency here. We're simply talking about the specific definition of residency for the purpose of transferring a firearm under federal law, which has already been mentioned and cited numerous times in this thread.

 

[dogtown tom]

Theohazard

Quote:Originally Posted by ShootistPRS
Making a home requires some kind of investment, living on property you own, or looking for property to buy, maybe?

Ownership of property isn't required to establish residency; the ATF explicitly says that in ATF Ruling 2010-6. In fact the ATF even allows an RVer to use the address of the spot where their RV is parked as their residence. Even a homeless person's tent on a street corner could qualify as a residence, but they would have to get some government-issued documentation of their tent's address to purchase a gun from an FFL.

Correct...but a word of caution to the RV'ers.

In order for someone who lives in an RV to claim a particular state as their "state of residence", (just like the homeless person above) they need to provide the same documentation as someone living in a home or apartment.

This means a physical address. ATF regulations clearly do not permit the use of a P.O Box or other mailing address. The address you claim as your current residence address must actually be the address where you reside.

For someone who is travelling the country constantly it may well be impossible to truthfully claim a "current address and state of residence" on Question 2 of the Form 4473.