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New Philly PD Order on OC
- Thread starter swinokur
- Start date
Is there any chance of Pennsylvania law being amended to make pre-emption statewide? In that case, Philadelphia would be the same as the rest of the state.because PA law allows Philly to require a CC to OC.
Forgive my ignorance of Pennsylvania's history with CCW laws, but how did the carve-out come about in the first place?
Doubtful, though a "right to travel" has been implied.If we still had a 9th Amendment that had any meaning whatsoever driving would be a fundamental right too.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I see two problems here:
1) Pennsylvania recognizes carry permits from a number of other states. Given that there is currently a court case on-going over the fact that Philadelphia has illegally arrested people for lawfully carrying with a Florida license, and unlawfully confiscated their firearms, I would have expected to see mention that out of state permits are valid ... or a list of which out of state permits are valid.
2) I don't think this directive passes constitutional muster. It is illegal to operate a motor vehicle without a license, too, but you don't see the Philadelphia police stopping every car on the streets until they can verify that the driver has a license, and that the license is current and valid. The legal basis for making a Terry stop is that there must be a "reasonable suspicion" based on clearly articulable facts on the part of the officer that a crime is being committed, has been committed, or is about to be committed. Having just been informed that open carry is legal within Philadelphia if the carrier has a carry permit ... what possible "reasonable suspicion" of a crime can there be just from seeing a person wearing a firearm in a holster? What clearly articulable fact could possibly turn that into a potential criminal act?
1) Pennsylvania recognizes carry permits from a number of other states. Given that there is currently a court case on-going over the fact that Philadelphia has illegally arrested people for lawfully carrying with a Florida license, and unlawfully confiscated their firearms, I would have expected to see mention that out of state permits are valid ... or a list of which out of state permits are valid.
2) I don't think this directive passes constitutional muster. It is illegal to operate a motor vehicle without a license, too, but you don't see the Philadelphia police stopping every car on the streets until they can verify that the driver has a license, and that the license is current and valid. The legal basis for making a Terry stop is that there must be a "reasonable suspicion" based on clearly articulable facts on the part of the officer that a crime is being committed, has been committed, or is about to be committed. Having just been informed that open carry is legal within Philadelphia if the carrier has a carry permit ... what possible "reasonable suspicion" of a crime can there be just from seeing a person wearing a firearm in a holster? What clearly articulable fact could possibly turn that into a potential criminal act?
That alleged Teletype message/ directive looks bogus to me. It's not written in "police-speak". and uses terms mostly popular with the firearms comunity.
It would probably be directed to "all officers, and comands"
It probably would include an "efective date" in the heading.
I dont think they would instruct an officer to "Sieze" the firearm, but retain posession, or remove from the person pending investigation.
It just dont read right to me.
Glenn D
It would probably be directed to "all officers, and comands"
It probably would include an "efective date" in the heading.
I dont think they would instruct an officer to "Sieze" the firearm, but retain posession, or remove from the person pending investigation.
It just dont read right to me.
Glenn D
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Glenn, I ran this by a friend who is a retired police officer living in Philadelphia. He responded this morning that it is genuine.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I'd like to know what a 75-48A is. Some sort of reference to a PA statute? Or a report form that arresting/investigating officers have to submit?
The PPD wording on the memo is poorly worded. There is no special permit. Any permit that PA recognizes is ok in Philly.
PA does have preemption but a special exception was made in the law that just affects OC in "cities of the first class" which means 1 million or more population. Philly is the only city in the state that meets the exception. All other PA firearms laws apply in Philly. The exception is only for OC
I don't see this law as any different than a sobriety checkpoint. The cops have no RAS but stop you anyway. How is that legal?
PA does have preemption but a special exception was made in the law that just affects OC in "cities of the first class" which means 1 million or more population. Philly is the only city in the state that meets the exception. All other PA firearms laws apply in Philly. The exception is only for OC
I don't see this law as any different than a sobriety checkpoint. The cops have no RAS but stop you anyway. How is that legal?
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Sobriety and seatbelt checkpoints have been specifically rules acceptable by the Supreme Court, and to be legal they have to meet certain criteria. Not being even a pretend lawyer, I don't remember what those criteria are. Nonetheless, criteria applicable specifically to motor vehicle checkpoints at specific locations are not applicable to stops at will be any officer on any street.
I think the Philadelphia police department really REALLY needs to re-read the SCOTUS rulings on Terry and Hiibel. Terry clearly established that before a police officer can detain an individual there must be "a reasonable suspicion, based on clearly articulable facts, that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed."
As I posted above, given that open carry in PA (and Philadelphia) is legal with a carry permit, the mere sight of someone carrying a firearm openly does not and cannot give rise automatically to a "reasonable suspicion" of criminal activity. Now, if the officer happened to recognize the individual and know that the individual is a convicted felon and thus a prohibited person ... that's the sort of thing that would give rise to a "reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts."
As to verifying permits -- how does that work? I don't live in PA. I have non-resident permits from both FL and NH (among others), both of which are recognized by PA. So if I am stopped in Philadelphia in the middle of the night for open carrying (to use an EXTREMELY unlikely scenario) ... how long is it going to take the Philadelphia PD to contact anyone in FL or NH to confirm that my permits are valid and current? Suppose I only have FL ... the FL permit is issued by the Department of Agriculture. My guess is that they don't man the phones 24/7, waiting for calls from the Philadelphia PD to verify carry permits. Or what if my permit is from Alaska, Wyoming, Montana, or one of those states?
I think the Philadelphia police department really REALLY needs to re-read the SCOTUS rulings on Terry and Hiibel. Terry clearly established that before a police officer can detain an individual there must be "a reasonable suspicion, based on clearly articulable facts, that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed."
As I posted above, given that open carry in PA (and Philadelphia) is legal with a carry permit, the mere sight of someone carrying a firearm openly does not and cannot give rise automatically to a "reasonable suspicion" of criminal activity. Now, if the officer happened to recognize the individual and know that the individual is a convicted felon and thus a prohibited person ... that's the sort of thing that would give rise to a "reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts."
As to verifying permits -- how does that work? I don't live in PA. I have non-resident permits from both FL and NH (among others), both of which are recognized by PA. So if I am stopped in Philadelphia in the middle of the night for open carrying (to use an EXTREMELY unlikely scenario) ... how long is it going to take the Philadelphia PD to contact anyone in FL or NH to confirm that my permits are valid and current? Suppose I only have FL ... the FL permit is issued by the Department of Agriculture. My guess is that they don't man the phones 24/7, waiting for calls from the Philadelphia PD to verify carry permits. Or what if my permit is from Alaska, Wyoming, Montana, or one of those states?
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I know a couple of reciprocity agreements that were cancelled due to lack of a 24/7 phone number for license verification. I can't remember which one. I have permits from VA,FL,UT, and NV. The only one with a 24/7 phone number for verification is UT. This is a freakin mess.
ViperGTS19801
New member
Ha! Looks like the news is spreading.
This update came about as a direct result of me being stopped in Philly with my gun, which I carry openly. I have a PA LTCF. I filed a complaint because I was treated like a criminal during the stop, even though they did eventually give me the gun back.
However, a second confrontation occurred on South Street a couple of weeks later, and my firearm was confiscated because I "refused to conceal." Public safety my ass, more like poorly trained cops.
Anyway, here's a link to how all this mess got started.
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/112072-open-carry-city-philadelphia-update-post-149-a.html
This update came about as a direct result of me being stopped in Philly with my gun, which I carry openly. I have a PA LTCF. I filed a complaint because I was treated like a criminal during the stop, even though they did eventually give me the gun back.
However, a second confrontation occurred on South Street a couple of weeks later, and my firearm was confiscated because I "refused to conceal." Public safety my ass, more like poorly trained cops.
Anyway, here's a link to how all this mess got started.
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/112072-open-carry-city-philadelphia-update-post-149-a.html