Need some serious sage rifle advice

[longship]

I've been going over this for about five years now and want to get some opinions.

I want to get a hunting rifle. I'm not in an economic class that will afford me buying several rifles for several different purposes though. I primarily hunt: small game, deer (small North Carolina Deer), very occassionally bear (no success yet), and small game. I'd like to hunt pigs as well or anything else that I can, but realistically I'm not likely to be hopping a plane to go elk hunting out west anytime real soon. However, if that opportunity comes up (hey, it could happen), I want to be able to use what I've already got and am familiar with instead of laying out more money for a new rifle which I've also got to learn to use well.

I don't really like recoil a lot. I can tolerate recoil but in shooting various guns through time (most of which belonged to other folks) I've found I'm a pretty darned good shot with lighter recoil rifles, and a mediocre shot at best with medium to heavy recoil rifle. I've hunted with and own a semi-auto .12 gauge shotgun. I've hunted with a .30-.30 and found it comfortable to shoot. I've shot .308 out of a really light weatherby carbine (ouch), .223 (no significant recoil), .30 caliber carbine (no recoil), a pump .270 (medium to slightly heavy recoil), etc.

I do reload, but it's on a small nutcracker set-up. Been doing it for years, it works, and it's cheap. Anyway, reloading gives me the opportunity to vary my loadings a bit. I've mostly reloaded for pistol though.

Where I live there is brush for miles so thick that people won't go into it (they'll run their dogs), but there's open flat farmfields where you could theoretically get in a good 600 - 700 yard shot. It's also pretty warm here so lugging around a heavy rifle is not fun at all.

I want to get a caliber that's pretty low on recoil but fairly versatile on game. I'd like it to be a caliber that I can easily get components and/or cartridges for. It needs to do this while being available in a light weight rifle. Oh, did I mention I'm left handed! ; ) I realize that I'll have to give up on the idea of trying to get something that works for small deer and large elk while being lightweight and low recoiling but I'd like to find the caliber that best fits my typical usage. I suppose typical usage would be mostly deer, occassional pig, and very rarely black bear in brushy to wide open terrain. Birds, rabbits and squirrels I do with my .22 or shotgun.

I know recoil is an individually perceived thing and that's why I've given you some of my shooting experiences and perceptions. I can do recoil but it seriously impacts my accuracy, which is bad.

What caliber and/or rifle can you suggest?

Here are some things I've heard suggested and some arguments for and against:
.243 (low recoil but awfully light for anything over small deer)
.45-70 (drops anything, recoils like a mo-fo out of a light lever, short range)
.30-06 (very versatile but recoils badly out of a light rifle)
.270 (fairly versatle but recoils badly out of a light rifle)
7mm-08 (less recoil, not real common here though)
.223 (no recoil, not legal here or ethical for large game)
.30 carbine (no recoil but not ethical for large game and no long shots)
.30-.30 (low recoil but no long shots)

The more I consider the question, the more I think a .243 might barely do it for what I'm seeking. Opinions please?

 

[James K]

Hi, Longship,

I want to buy a car to haul my family of 23 around in comfort and once in a while enter it at Le Mans or Indy or Talladega, and sometimes rent it out to Mayflower to use for furniture hauling but it can' t have hard steering or make noise or anything....

Sorry for the bit of heavy humor, but what you want is not really available. You were OK until you got to the bear and thick brush.

You have listed just about all the calibers in the middle area except three. The 7mm Mauser might be a good choice except that it must be handloaded to get good performance. There are many military rifles available but most of them would need a new barrel to shoot well.

The 7mm-08 is an excellent cartridge and is available in the beautiful (but fairly expensive) Remington Model 7.

One very good prospect would be the 6.5x55, which has a lot more oomph than the .243 but has light recoil and good sporting ammo is available. Long range shots would be feasible, also, with the great Norma ammo or handloads. The Swedish military rifles available for it almost all have nice barrels, shoot extremely well, and are moderately priced.

Jim

 

[Coltdriver]

I have heard that the CETME .308 has a fairly low recoil. You can get one through Century Arms I think.

That is a very powerful round, will make a great long distance shot and comes on a platform that would be easy to carry in the bush.

I imagine you could vary the bullet weight depending on what you are after since you reload.

And I don't think you break the bank with one of these either.

 

[rugerfreak]

Ask yourself if you are going to carry it a lot or shoot it a lot.

Carried a lot----go with a lighter rifle.

Shot a lot---go heavier.

Life is full of compromises-----Get a .270 or .30-06 and deal with it.

 

[Rebeldon]

longship,

I know the rifle for you! You don't want high recoil but you want to shoot deer, pig and bear. How about a Marlin 1894? It is chambered for the .44 Rem. Mag./.44 S&W Special. It is a lever-action rifle with a tubular magazine which holds 10 rounds of .44 Rem. Magnum. You can also mount a scope on it too. It has a 20" barrel and weighs 6 pounds. The recoil is about the same as a .30-30. Since you've hunted with the .30-30, I'm assuming that you are comfortable with lever-action rifles. It's effective range is about 125 yards, but longer shots are certainly possible. But really, how often do you need to shoot a deer more than 100-125 yards? I've never harvested a deer with a shot more than 125 yards. I used to own a Marlin 1894, but I bought it used and its previous owner didn't take good care of it and the finish was scratched up. Every deer I ever shot with it went down instantly. It is good for bear too, although I never used it for bear. It is great for wild pigs as well. I used it for wild pigs once, but I didn't get to make a shot. It's a big bore rifle, with 10+1 shots, and when loaded with the .44 S&W Special, it is very fun for plinking and very suitable for home defense. I sold my Marlin 1894 because it was all scratched up (if I had the experience I have now, I would have refinished it instead), and I bought a Ruger M77 Mk II All-weather .308 Win., but I never shot a deer more than 125 yards with that either. So I sold the Ruger and now I hunt with a Marlin 336SS .30-30 Win., but I wouldn't hunt wild pigs with it. The .44 Rem. Mag. is more suitable for wild pigs than the .30-30 Winchester. Ruger makes nice .44 Rem. Mag. rifles too, but they only hold 5 rounds. Do you want only 5 rounds? We all want higher capacity if possible, don't we? And in my opinion, the Marlin is more accurate. I believe Winchester and Browning also make lever-action .44 Rem. Mag. rifles, but I'm not sure that you can mount a scope on them. And since you reload, there are a lot of different kinds of bullets and weights, for different kinds of game, that you can use in the .44 Rem. Magnum.

 

[Art Eatman]

In 1950, I started out reloading for my first .30-'06 with a Lyman 310 Tong Tool. It was not eggzackly Ideal (sorry), but it worked.

Anyway, there's the answer to your recoil problem: Load down, a bit.

I can tell you that I've yet to hear the rifle fire or notice the recoil, when some critter was in the crosshairs.

Easy enough to find yourself a .308. You can load 150-grain bullets ahead of around 20 to 25 grains of 2400, and get roughly .30-30 behavior. (I've tried that load.) It's easy enough to load 180- or 200-grain bullets for a bear hunt, and load a bit hot. Multitudes of options for a handloader.

The thing is, there is a lot less felt recoil from the offhand position or from a hasty rest, than from a benchrest. There's not one thing wrong about using extra padding at the bench!!!

My first '06 was a 1917 Enfield. That steel butt plate danged near beat me to death! And I weighed every bit of 120 pounds, at around 5'-10" or so...I just rolled up a towel and looped it over my shootin' shoulder and pressed on regardless.

Anyway, some points to ponder...

Art

 

[Al Thompson]

I have two good friends that had/have the same concerns. Both have setteled on the 6.5x55 in modified Swedish Mausers. I have the light rifle covered, but the performance they get keeps me thinking about doing the same. Great cartridge, good bullets available and the swede's really shoot well.

You can ease your way into the project with a mil surplus rifle, add a scope, stock and Timney trigger as your budget allows.

Giz

 

[yorec]

I would stick with the .270 win. Or 30-06, the two most all around calibers I know of, but the .270 recoils a little less with the lighter bullets that you'd generally use for deer - only load up with heavy bullets for that trip out west for elk. You don't need to compromise on caliber selection, so why minimize with other rounds?

To fix with your perceived recoil problems, get a custom built stock to help controll felt recoil. It should be glass bedded, have a nice thick recoil pad, (Pachmyer Decelerator of similar) and be custom fit to your shooting form - proper length of pull, comb drop, grip specification, (A good thumbhole grip or proper palm swell does wonders for control) etc. etc. This will take some doing - you'll have to find someone who can build this for you and wait patiently while they do it. Discuss with them what you want and they'll likely have good suggestions for you that'll make the project even more applicable. But be warned, it probably won't be cheap! You'll also likely have one of the best looking rifle you've ever seen - be sure to top it with quality optics, you'll both deserve it.

Then you'll have a gun in the caliber capable of what you want, which fits you properly so it will feel as comfortable as possible when you fire it. Then, go out and learn to shoot it - a lot. Learn to manage that recoil, if the rifle is like the ones I have, you won't have to go numb trying....

And if, when all's said and done, you still don't enjoy shooting your gun frequently, buy any ol' gun in .308 or 7mm-08 for your hunts for medum and light game and save the custom rifle for your trips out west. It'll still be the centerpiece of your collection.

 

[longship]

Thanks all. Good advice going here. I realize I'll have to make some compromises on my expectations. I'm simply looking for the rifle/caliber that fits most of my wants.

I once had a milsurp 6.5x55 and I liked the caliber. It didn't have that bad of recoil but I found the recoil to be uncomfortable out of the military stock it was in. I'm sure it was fixable with a aftermarket stock but I'm left handed and didn't like the extra time involved in throwing the bolt so I sold it. I also was not able to easily find ammo for it but this was before the internet craze was really good and going. In any case, it's not something that you can just pick up at any mom and pop store, however, if I reloaded for it I suppose that wouldn't really matter.

Speaking of reloading, it's sounding like I can control the recoil of the larger/middle caliber a lot through reloading. I didn't realize that because most people I hear talking reloading are pushing either accuracy or hot loads. Sounds like I could load up hot stuff for the rare and occassional large/dangerous game hunts and keep rounds loaded down for the smaller/medium game that I typically go for.

Which of the "standard" versatile calibers on the market (.270, .308, .30-06...) responds well to a wide range of loadings?

I had not considered a .44 magnum lever but that sounds like it would be perfect except for the loss in long range shooting. It's common, easy to load, heavy bullet, light rifle, low recoil, variable loadings (I've done this in a pistol), etc. Yes, the super long range shots are fairly rare. This might be something to consider for game variability if I can sacrifice the long range ability. It also would not let me even remotely cover a trip to the west.

Thanks for all the advice folks and I appreciate any more suggestions you might have.

Jim, how'd ya know I was looking for car that meets all those qualifications as well?

 

[Art Eatman]

Get a copy of the Speer reloading manual, #13. In it, they show reduced loads for many cartridges and bullet weights thereof.

If you're looking at rifles with barrel lengths of 20" to 22", go with the .308. The '06 works better with 24", and best with 26".

There is a relatively new recoil pad on the market, called "Kick-Eez". It's a synthetic polymer, and "dissipates over 20 percent more kinetic energy" than Pachmyr. It's a bit pricey, retailing at $35. You can install it yourself, but the article in the August, 2001, Guns & Ammo emphasizes following the directions. (And it might be out, now, at discount retailers.)

For new guns, Tikka and Savage offer left-hand models. They have good reputations for accuracy. They are lower-end, pricewise. I generally look for good used stuff at gunshows--and you can always put a WTB ad at various websites.

Good luck,

Art

 

[Steve Smith]

Don't forget, there is also a (Speer?) .30 cal bullet called the "plinker" that is built for practice and small game. With some load work, it will allow you to take on the small game with very little recoil. That bullet will work in any .30 caliber rifle.

 

[k77/22rp]

How about 8mm Mauser, you could get a M38 Turkish Mauser, heck you could get 5 for less than you'd pay for a new rifle, 8mm mauser is powerful enough for anything you mentioned and for plinking its extremely cheap, and available.
Though, it is heavy at about 9.2 pounds but that sure does dampen recoil. Kicks less than a 20 gauge with the hottest ammo available.
Most of them out there have sewer pipes for bbl's and a fence post of a stock, but there are more than a few good ones. Mine shoots about a 3" group at 100yds with turk surplus.

 

[Scarborough]

You may also try locating a used Savage 99 Rifle in .250 Savage . This will give you low recoil as well as decent velocity for longer shots. While I personally do not have experience with this cartridge a family I knew years ago enjoyed good success with these rifles on deer and black bear.

 

[KSFreeman]

Rifles are like golf clubs. Some shots demand different calibers. However, the golfer makes it happen.

True with rifles. Nothing wrong with a .308 for the scenarios you decide. Strong arguments exists for the .30-`06 or 6.5Swede as well.

Pick a rifle. Practice with it so that you know where it shoots and then go to skul.

 

[JohnKSa]

I hate to discourage you, but if you think the recoil from a Swedish Mauser is "uncomfortable", you might as well pack it in.

You're not going to find anything that will even come close to meeting your requirements that will have less recoil than a Swede.

If you do go with a .243, you'd better avoid shooting bears or pigs...

 

[Dave R]

I can vouch for the fact that the CETME has very little recoil for a .308. Less than a .30-30. Just a bit more than .223. It has a good muzzle brake, and the roller-locking action soaks up some recoil. 5 round mags are available (and cheap), so it would be legal for hunting most places. Mine shoots 2MOA--good enough.

However, its a 9lb+ rifle. If you're walking far, I'd rather have a nice bolt gun at around 7 lbs.

If you have to take 200 yard shots, I don't think you'll find anything that recoils less than a 6.5 Swede or a downloaded .308.

I would take the .308 so you have the option of using heavier bullets for bear (or elk). .308 recoil feels like 12 ga. recoil to me.

If you can live with 100 yard shots, .44mag may be OK.

 

[Jaywalker]

Personally, I'd avoid both the .270 and the .30-'06; they can't do much that the 7-08 or the .308 won't do with less recoil. The amount of powder a case holds is a large component of recoil, and the longer cases simply hold more powder. I agree that the 6.5 Swede sounds made for you. You could consider the new .260 cartridge also, if your budget would swing to a new rifle. A .257 might work, also, but would be on the light side for elk.

Probably just as important is the fit of the stock and how you hold it. I have a Ruger .270 Ultralight that is by far the most uncomfortable thing to shoot off a bench that I have ever owned. (I hold it too loose, to improve groups.) A broad buttplate and a firm against-the-shoulder grip will help, as will a good (not just rubber) recoil pad. Remember that "bench" is not "hunting." When you sprawl over a bench, your shoulder can't give the way it would offhand or sitting, and it aggravates the felt recoil.

Another approach that's been hinted is to own the more authoritative round and load it down for normal use, then go back to regular power for larger game.

This sounds a lot like the old magazines' stories about the "all around rifle," then usually the .270, .30-'06, or later the 7MM Remington Mag. It's fun to think about, but most folks who like rifles end up with more than one, just as professional photographers need more than one camera to interpret their world. All of the cheap firearms I've ever bought, I've sold, some at a loss, just to get rid of them. Quality is cheap in the long run.

Jaywalker

 

[longship]

I didn't mean to indicate that I thought the 6.5 x55 is a harsh round for recoil. I was trying to get across that I found the stock and buttplate to make the recoil it had seem far worse than it should for me. I've shot lots of shotguns through time, mostly 12 gauge single, double, pump, semi-auto... and I've never thought a 12 gauge was a bad round to shoot at all from a recoil perspective. I did have a 20 gauge single once that I sold because I just found the thing uncomfortable to shoot. I've never really heard that stock design makes that big of a difference in felt recoil until today but that really makes sense with my previous shooting experiences. Perhaps in a more modern designed stock with a left handed bolt action, the swede would be a good gun for me. I lean more towards .308 the more I read but my one experience shooting it from a short stocked 6.5 lb carbine years ago left me feeling kind of cold about the experience. It had about 1.5 times the recoil of the pump .270 of my grandfathers that I shot and it wasn't all that bad. It's beginning to sound more and more like I just need to be real careful about getting a rifle that "fits" me well. Unfortunately, how do you do this without going and shooting it first? Nowhere around here rents rifles to shoot. There's not even a legal rifle range that I know of within 1.5 hours drive. Typically if I need to sight in a long gun I take it to the gamelands, find a backstop, and take my chances that the warden won't make me leave because I'm not "hunting".

Is there any way to tell how a rifle stock should fit you without firing it?

 

[Jaywalker]

Scorn,
You might want to download the recoil calculator I uploaded at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=91715. It will at least give you a starting point for comparing figures. It has its limitations, as it doesn't consider stock fit or action types. By action types, I mean that it assumes all firearms are "solid breech," and doesn't take into account the recoil-softening design of gas-operated autoloaders. The recoil of a seven and a half pound Remington 7400 or Browning BAR will feel lighter than the recoil of the same cartridge in a bolt action rifle, but the calculator will show the same foot-pounds of recoil energy. The difference is that the gas-operation spreads the recoil over a longer period of time, so that the instantaneous impression is lessened.

As to stock fit, my reference was to ensure that the stock wasn't greatly off size for you, not to ensure that you can get or need a custom doublegun fit. The only fit checks I do is see that it shoulders easily without dragging at my armpit, then ensure that the stock isn't too short. I do that by holding the grip in firing position with my right hand (I'm right-handed) and see where the butt falls in relation to my inner elbow when it's at approximately a 90-degree angle. If it nestles my inner elbow, it probably isn't too short.

I find that most factory rifle stocks fit me well enough, and most factory shotgun stocks are much too long. (My Ruger 77 .270 has a 13 1/2 inch length of pull - center of the trigger to center of the buttpad, while my shotguns are 14 inches or longer.) It's always seemed strange that the shotgun, which lives for its handling abilities should be so unwieldy. I suspect that they are made long on purpose to ensure that they are pulled very tightly into the shoulder in order to reduce recoil.

Jaywalker

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

A Browning BAR in 7mm mag or .300 mag.

Mine's a .300 mag. With a good recoil pad, this rifle is much nicer to shoot than all of the rest of my standing-breech guns.

It also swatted my goggles hard enough to draw blood. Don't get too close to it.

A beefy shove, but not a sharp crack. Range is not a problem. Power to take any thing on the continent.

Lots of caliber choices, if you decide the mags are too much. Not to heavy, but a bit expensive. NICE gun for the money, though. Lots better than the Remington 7400 semi's.

Give a long look at the Remingto Model 8/81 Woodsmaster semi-auto rifles form the first part of the century. They'tre ususally cheap, and come in worthy calibers like .300 Savage and .35 Remington. They're very well made, and quite mild shooters. Funny-looking though, and a bit heavy, but very handy in the woods with their 22" barrels. A John Browning design, they're the first successful commercial autoloading rifle made, with a long recoil action. Production spanned forty years, from 1908 to WW II. Must be a good rifle! Went out of prduction as too expensive to make! A steal at the $300 I usually see them selling for, and many are less. Both of mine were under $200. One was $145!

They'tre just hard to find in a good caliber. Lots of .25, .30 and .32 Remington caliber guns around, and no readily available ammo. But if you see one, give it a look-see. From a distance, they look a lot like an Auto-5 shotgun with a barrel on steroids.