NBC New York is Shocked to Learn Effect of SAFE Act

Armorer-at-Law

New member
NBC New York "I-Team" discovers that "assault" rifles, after a few cosmetic changes to comply with the state's SAFE Act, look "almost entirely the same as those that were banned."

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/investiga...lt-Weapons-Semiautomatic-AR-15-258323561.html

But the new modified rifle is still semi-automatic. That means each squeeze of the trigger automatically loads the next round into the chamber.
Some families of gun violence victims say they are frustrated by what they believe are efforts to skirt the gun control law.

"Here we go again,” said Joyce Gorycki, who lost her husband in the 1993 Long Island Rail Road massacre. “This is what they always do. It's just a terrible thing. The gun manufacturers. I just don't understand them."
They didn't use the word "loophole," but they are still upset that gun manufacturers comply with the law rather than go out of business.
 
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Glenn E. Meyer

New member
These points of equal efficacy and the futility of an 'AWB' ban focusing on cosmetics has been made for years in the criminological literature. See Koper and Roth.

Gun world take away - bans are useless. Antigun world take away - ban them all.

Given there is no middle ground that makes sense from either position, the antigun world will push for complete bans of semiautomatic guns.

So - that's why the modern sporting rifle story is BS and a surrender to the antigunner's world view. Hear that NSSF and gun talk show dudes, gun rag writers!!
 

Scimmia

New member
So they outlaw cosmetic features and are surprised when the manufacturers make cosmetic changes? Shame on NBC for stirring things up with such an idiotic story.
 

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
The advocate for the law had to babble about the grip being a significant factor as they need even a minor effect to push for more stringent methods.

The issue could easily be settled by a quality human factors experiment. I know of no such study being done.
 

2ndsojourn

New member
I agree with Scimmia above.

They ban certain features on a gun, and when the manufacturers take them off to comply, they still gripe.

"But the new modified rifle is still semi-automatic. That means each squeeze of the trigger automatically loads the next round into the chamber"

That seems to be stated to fear-monger people into thinking it's a machine gun. Probably because the hack....erm... I mean reporter also thinks it is.
 

Armorer-at-Law

New member
In the video, even the NYU law professor referred to the law as previously prohibiting two "scary features" and now prohibiting even one "scary feature."
 

doofus47

New member
So, before the law was passed, no one cared that the gun community told them that their proposed changes weren't affecting function, just cosmetics. So now they are worried about function, not cosmetics.
I guess I'd best start paying attention, they're getting smarter...
 
I understand the public relations driven urge to label banned features as cosmetic, but they really are not cosmetic, let's be honest.

A flash hider, forward grip, pistol grip, and collapsible stock all have specific useful functions that make the firearm more functional. I actually think there is an argument here in our favor.

Collapsible stocks for example make the firearm fit the user better or adapt the firearm to various shooting positions. Flash hiders allow the firearm to be used at night without being blinded by the flash. Forward grips allow the user to better control the weapon. Pistol grips allow a natural hand position to better control the weapon.

How on earth is an ill fitting rifle, which is more difficult to fire accurately safer? Safer for whom? Ask an innocent bystander.

Of course, we all know this, but calling these features cosmetic is as disingenuous as our opponents claiming they make the rifle more lethal.
 
Armorer-at-Law said:
They didn't use the word "loophole," but they are still upset that gun manufacturers comply with the law rather than go out of business.
But they did the same thing around 1995, when all the manufacturers started selling "post-ban" configured AR-15s. The anti-gunners complained that the manufacturers were exploiting a "loophole."

No, they were strictly complying with the silly requirements of a stupid, ill-conceived law that was authored by people who had no understanding of that which they sought to regulate (or prohibit). If the same logic were applied to traffic enforcement, every driver who avoids a speeding ticket by not exceeding the speed limit would be "exploiting a loophole."
 

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
maestro pistolero said:
calling these features cosmetic is as disingenuous as our opponents claiming they make the rifle more lethal.

I consider that contradictory.

For one, being "cosmetic" doesn't mean that there's no function whatsoever. It means that the function of the device isn't integral to the weapon. The gun functions without them. One of the definitions of "Cosmetic" is "not important or meaningful". Since none of these features are required by the gun and it's works just fine without them, they are cosmetic.

Two, for most users, most of the banned features ARE purely (or significantly) for looks. I've known plenty of people who have ARs with flash suppressors and none of them that shoot at night. They are there to look cool. Pistol grips are the same. It's a basic part of the AR historic design, but it's not a requirement, as we've seen with the new designs.
 
The anti-gunners complained that the manufacturers were exploiting a "loophole."
The cries of "loopholes" in the Brady Act were utterly disingenuous and dishonest. Authors of the bill deliberately and knowingly excluded private sales. They couldn't have gotten it passed otherwise.

For the record, this is a loophole:

loop·hole (noun) \ˈlüp-ˌhōl\ :
an error in the way a law, rule, or contract is written that makes it possible for some people to legally avoid obeying it
 
Brian Pfleuger said:
I consider that contradictory.

For one, being "cosmetic" doesn't mean that there's no function whatsoever. It means that the function of the device isn't integral to the weapon. The gun functions without them.
No, it doesn't, particularly in the case of a pistol grip. The removed pistol grip must be replaced with a different design to replace the functionality in order for the weapon to be operable, i.e. functional.

One of the definitions of "Cosmetic" is "not important or meaningful".
Whether those features are important or meaningful to any given person under given set of circumstance is highly debatable. What is not debatable is that they enhance the functionality of the weapon, or they wouldn't exist, let alone be ubiquitous. Therefore the word "cosmetic" is inapt to describe those features. If any doubt remains about that, note that antonyms to 'cosmetic' include "functional" and "utilitarian".

The most common understandings and usage of the word cosmetic is :

1: of, relating to, or making for beauty especially of the complexion

2: done or made for the sake of appearance: as
a : correcting defects especially of the face <cosmetic surgery>
b : decorative, ornamental
c : not substantive : superficial <cosmetic changes>

3: visually appealing

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cosmetic
Since none of these features are required by the gun and it's works just fine without them, they are cosmetic.
None of the feature are required by the gun in order to lauch a projectile, but they may well be required by the operator. If a rifle is used at night for self-defense and the flash blinds the operator, I would submit that the functionality of that weapon was severely compromised. If a person is forced to defend him or herself from a position that requires a shorter or longer stock to be effective, the functionality is compromised. Same, of course for magazine limits. What might be just fine and dandy on a range, might be woefully inadequate in actual use for the most important purpose of defense.


Two, for most users, most of the banned features ARE purely (or significantly) for looks. I've known plenty of people who have ARs with flash suppressors and none of them that shoot at night.
If called upon to use your weapon for lawful defense, there is a 50/50 chance it will be at night. I wouldn't use recreational shooting to set the bar for what functionality a weapon may have.
They are there to look cool. Pistol grips are the same. It's a basic part of the AR historic design, but it's not a requirement, as we've seen with the new designs.
Whether a person ever actually uses the functionally of those features is irrelevant to whether those features are functional or cosmetic.

If you replace the low-profile racing tires on your Lamborghini with passenger car tires, the car will still go down the road. Were those racing tires and rims purely cosmetic, or do they serve to enhance the functionality of the car?

The biggest problem with the misuse of the word 'cosmetic' when referring to common features of guns is that it's a double-edged sword. Claiming the features do little or nothing to degrade to functionality of the gun is a losing argument.

If there is no loss of functionality of the gun, then how can we argue against laws that would ban those features? Where would be the harm?
 

Kappe

New member
The biggest problem with the misuse of the word 'cosmetic' when referring to common features of guns is that it's a double-edged sword. Claiming the features do little or nothing to degrade to functionality of the gun is a losing argument.

If there is no loss of functionality of the gun, then how can we argue against laws that would ban those features? Where would be the harm?

Trying to argue that the features are useful for lawful self-defense, while at the same time not beneficial to a gunman, was exactly how those parts of the NY SAFE Act were upheld.

Lives do not hinge on the marginal increase in comfort a pistol grip or adjustable stock may offer. As far as lethality goes, they might as well be cosmetic.
 
The fact that the law was upheld says far, far more about the courts and politics that it does about the argument. The whole point of the second amendment is to put law-abiding people on people footing with those who would harm them, thus, the common use test. All other things being equal, the disadvantages, however minor, change that balance. Since gunfights often hinge on milliseconds, those minor disadvantages may mean the difference between life and death.
 
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Kappe

New member
All other things being equal, the disadvantages, however minor, change that balance. Since gunfights often hinge on milliseconds, those minor disadvantages may mean the difference between life and death.
This argument, by the same token, is a double-edged sword.

Any feature that supposedly benefits a gun owner in a self-defense scenario, also invariably benefits a gunman in a mass shooting.

The opposition would argue that milliseconds matter in mass shootings just as they do in SD. Had a shooter been armed with a fixed-stocked rifle instead of an adjustable-stocked rifle, would one life have been saved?
 
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