Moral Obligations of an FFL

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
What do I think? I believe a businessman should have the right to sell any legal product to anyone. Personally, however, there are many people to whom I personally would not sell weapons or related items. But it should be by choice.

Rich pretty much summed it up for me.
 

Ed Brunner

New member
There are at least two things running through this thread:perception and reality.
Knowing that someone is going to commit a crime with something you would sell him is one thing;thinking that he could or might is something completely different.

Should convicted felons be permitted to buy body armor?
Probably not.


------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 

longhair

New member
No, he does not!!!!!!i tell you what, we can restrict the sales of door locks to make it easier for leos and anyone else to come in your house uninvited. makes about as much sense!!!

------------------
fiat justitia

longhaircsa@netscape.net
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Well, this is indeed an interesting thread.

And thaddeus, you're going to make me have a lot more respect for 'tattooed, goateed, body pierced freaks'! Right on. Freedom also means having the liberty to choose who you do business with (and no, I don't agree with racist policies in that regard).

Since our premise is 'moral obligation', I would include 'business sense' in that arena. And, IMHO, I believe the FFL or police supply shop owner would be wise and ethical to screen his / her customers. He / she should have the freedom to do this. They can post a sign to that effect, they can screen based upon police records (e.g. felons), or they can just say 'golly, I'm out of that size right now' for all I care.

Now, a law to this effect is not appropriate, from my perspective. But, if I put myself in the position of being such an owner, I just can't sleep at night if I know darn well that I'm selling body armor to BG's. And, it will behoove me with the majority of my clients (LEO's and honest civilians alike) if they know I'm not equipping their local gangsters. Not to mention that I don't care for standing in line with gangsta's.

From my perspective, 'moral obligation' is definitely in the eyes of the beholder. If it is my moral decision, then I want to be able to live with myself and look myself in the mirror each day.
 

Rob Pincus

New member
Jeff,

That begs the question, "Where do you draw the line?". I'm not trying to put you on the spot, or justify your feelings. I just don't like the idea of encouraging a dealer of protective products to start basing his sales on appearance.
 

dairycreek

New member
Making one who sells a product responsible (and then exacting penalites) for the act of the person to whom he sells the product?

Isn't that just what the anti gun forces are doing with the gun manufacturers? Doesn't seem to make sense - ever!
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
This is an interesting situation. By believing in the merchant's freedom to 'pick' his customers, it gives the impression of some type of product 'censorship', and therefore a lack of freedom.

Rob, I would say the merchant decides where to draw his own line. Certainly there have been times in this country where merchants decided to not do business with people because of the color of their skin. And, their other customers appreciated that fact. IMHO, that was morally wrong. OTOH, I have no problem with a merchant who feels strongly that he has a bad feeling in his gut about a certain customer. If the merchant gets a bad feeling too often, he'll simply go out of business through lack of sales. I am simply saying I see nothing wrong with a merchant making a judgement call in such a case.

And dairycreek, when you say 'Making one who sells a product responsible (and then exacting penalites) for the act of the person to whom he sells the product?' and 'Isn't that just what the anti gun forces are doing with the gun manufacturers? Doesn't seem to make sense - ever!', I respectfully disagree.

The anti-gunners want to hold these merchants / manufacturers legally and financially responsible for crimes committed with their products. I don't support such behavior or policy. For example, if a civilian is killed by a BG who survives long enough to deliver the fatal shot due to body armor, I'm not going to blame the merchant. However, I wouldn't do business with that merchant, and I would feel he is unethical if he freely and ambitiously sold body armor to known gangsters. I'm not suggesting we make merchants legally and financially responsible for the crimes of others. I am stating that sometimes merchants have a very good idea of a person's character, and if that person is a danger to the merchant and others, I appreciate that merchant making a reasonable judgement call. I value them more highly as a thinking, logical human being.

To test the other side of this coin, how do you feel about a merchant that sells body armor, ammunition and weapons to a civilian (non-felon) who first asked where the nearest bank is, whether they have much security, how much cash they usually have on hand, and where the nearest police station is located? And then he asks if he can borrow a pen and paper so he can write a 'give me the cash, or I blow you away' note? At some point of course you get into an area where it is obvious a crime is imminent, but even before that exact point, can't a merchant make a judgement call on a gut feel for a potential problem?

This is one of the few reasons I am sometimes uncomfortable with Paladin Press, for example. I would appreciate them a bit more if they didn't participate in publishing some titles that are too 'efficient' in aiding BG's. I wouldn't hold them responsible legally, but I do hold them responsible morally if their information is too clearly intended for offensive, violent attacks on innocents.

A slippery slope? Well, remember the premise of this conversation - do we feel the merchant is 'morally responsible' to check out their customers? Yes I do, at least as far as the merchant needs to feel personally comfortable. That doesn't mean I have any interest in a law to enforce that responsiblity. Each individual's concept of 'morality' is certainly a very private decision, IMHO.

Perhaps the difficulty with my position is that some will believe legal and financial responsibility must naturally follow moral responsibily. I don't see those responsibilies as necessarily following one another, and I would suggest that we would be better off as a country if we got back to recognizing that fact. Judgement is a good thing for thinking human beings.


[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited March 02, 1999).]
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
Whoops! Misread a post. Sorry.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 02, 1999).]
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Dennis, that was a bullseye! [before you edited it!! Now I'm shadow boxin'!]

Well, let me consider it as it might happen. If I'm the dealer, and I know this guy is an alcoholic and a habitual and unrepentant drunk driver, I'll pass on the sale. Sure, he'll buy a car elsewhere, but it won't be my car he uses as a weapon. And, I'm not going to feel good about my peer dealer if he has the same info and makes sure he puts the guy in a Hummer!

Now, to set this straight, I don't think it is practical or common for most merchants to have a great deal of information available on their customers. You wouldn't be able to stay in business if you questioned customers too closely. So, many 'close call' situations aren't really going to come up in normal transactions. I don't have any interest in policing customers in detail. I'm just arguing that some situations are obvious and troubling, and personally I would pass on those deals.

In Rob's body armor example, I would say the LEO's would be unreasonable in their boycott if they expected the merchant to require a credit report, background check and social security number. OTOH, if they determined the merchant had very good reason to know the customer was a BG, then I would certainly understand their frustration.

One reason we end up with stupid and unnecessary laws is because some fool uses very poor judgement in a critical situation - 'bad facts make bad law'. Judgement is a good human trait, and I believe it is healthy to exercise good judgement.

If you were involved in a war (assume 'law' is out the window), how do you feel about your gun supplier selling to your enemy?

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited March 02, 1999).]
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
Jeff,
Dagnabit! You're just too quick for me!
I misread your post, got it backwards, and was ready to pounce when I suddenly noticed you and I are on the same side.

Therefore, Whoops!

BTW, if someone was selling weapons to the enemy, I'd suspect he was Jane Fonda dressed as a guy.... (chuckle) :)
 
Okay, I'm in with you guys. I don't want a law that would restrict the sale of Body armor. Do I feel he has a moral responsibility? That depends on his morals. I personally would feel a moral responsiblity to sell only to those I felt would not use a Weapon (Active or Passive) to harm another without cause, or to protect themselves while attempting to harm another. Nor will I do Buisness with a store that I know does not have those same morals.

We also have to understand that any item that the Police have will get into the hands of the BGs sooner or later. To denigh that to the honest Citizen is both unfair and contributes to the Crime rate.

There is nothing I wear or carry that an Honest Citizen can't carry or wear except the badge, and they can wear that too if they get the job first.

I would not boycott the store until I had checked to see if the Dealer had sold them the Body armor, and if it was a continuing problem or a one time thing. As it has been said he needs to pick what clientel he wants and if it includes the BG then it doesn't include me.

[This message has been edited by Raymond VanDerLinden (edited March 02, 1999).]
 

Rob Pincus

New member
Hold on, Ray, I wanted to make that statement too, but I realized that I do own two "LE/MIL ONLY" mags. Of course, anyone can get mags that are equal, but they have to pay more than $15 for them.

Do you have no new full capacity mags?
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Now, Dennis, ya gotta learn to play fair here! If you're gonna start agreeing with me then I'm going to get confused! ;) I didn't think we'd be too far apart, really.

It is a cute situation with those hi-cap mag's, eh? I can be a little safer if I'm willing to pay 3 to 4 times as much. 'Course, 10 rounds isn't really the point, is it? We're just in a holding pattern until they get us down to 5 rounds, and then 1 round, and then ... whoops - no rounds! But golly ... we didn't say you can't have a gun, fella!
 

GLV

Moderator
Got my first FFL in 61, had a storefront gun store in a small town mall from 82 until 98.

I often refused to sell firearms to people who I believe could pass our background check. I also refused to sell body armor on occasion.

Guns, example, "I don't want to hurt him/her, just scare him/her". Or " I'll just shoot him a little bit". Another example; we had a nasty strike at a local plant -- lots of talk etc. Two young ( thirties ) middle managers came in my store to buy guns. A half hour later they left with two copies of In Gravest Extreme, and two cans of pepper spray. Told them to come back after they read the book. One called and thanked me, never heard from the other.

I did not stock SBA, and the only SBA I sold was Second Chance. I respected Rich's policy, but informed the citizen that he could buy by mail and get it faster that I could, and at a better price. GLV
 

Rob Pincus

New member
The only "Rich" around here is our glorious leader Rich L., perhaps you should edit your message and fill in the masses on who your buddy "Rich" is ;) .....

------------------
-Essayons
 

ShadedDude

New member
No. Many reasons go through my mind...but as far as the shop owner goes, he is selling the things in his shop.

------------------

Mouse Assassins inc.
 

Mark M33

New member
Does anyone know one's intentions all the time? Is there a gauge where the FFL decides, sell no sell. I would say no.M33
 
Top