Modular Handgun System (former Joint Combat Pistol): Which caliber would be best?

future sidearm for the US forces: Which caliber fits best?

  • 5,7 x 28mm

    Votes: 4 5.5%

  • 9 x 19mm

    Votes: 31 42.5%

  • .40 S&W

    Votes: 13 17.8%

  • .45 ACP

    Votes: 25 34.2%
  • Total voters
    73
  • Poll closed .
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simonrichter

New member
10 x 25mm, hmmm

hell of a recoil and similar hellish expensive, I guess more or less the same pros and cons that are true for the .357 SIG, maybe with the exeption that the 10mm would give a reasonable performance in a subsonic version for SOCOM pusposes (bearing in mind that the bid also includes a sound suppression set)
 
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Patriot86

New member
Question becomes what is the handgun supposed to do? Is it a "low intensity conflict" gun, where you would probably use it if your M4 fails; to shoot down an unarmored suicide bomber as quickly possible, while firing as few shots as possible. If that is the case you probably want something bigger like a .45 or .40

Or is it a sidearm that needs to defeat some level of modern body armor that you are likly to see a Chinese or Russian "regular" equipped with? In that case I am not sure even the 5.7mm would be good enough.


This is kind of symptomatic of the military today: what kind of a military are we building and who is it designed to fight


PS: From a logistics standpoint; I imagine 9mm has a big edge not only because we have droves of it here in our stockpiles, but so do out NATO allies over in Europe.
 
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simonrichter

New member
Or is it a sidearm that needs to defeat some level of modern body armor that you are likly to see a Chinese or Russian "regular" equipped with? In that case I am not sure even the 5.7mm would be good enough.
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a really good point, leading to the core of the matter. In fact, "regulars" will nowadays routinely wear hard body armor (class III or IV), and for such, even the so called "AP" calibers like 5,7 x 28 or 4,6 x 30mm (I didn't add the latter to the list because actually there is no handgun in that caliber) won't perform better than a .22 against a class I vest. So I'm not sure whether soft body armor penetration should be to much of a criterion. Other than that, I guess we will have to scenarios of use:
1. In a "retreat" or "buying time to get the main weapon working again" situation: Delivering rounds towards the enemy in order to force him to take cover (no matter whether these bullets actually "stop" or "penetrate"...)
2. For SOCOM purposes where especially the a good performance w/ subsonic rounds seems desirable...
 
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simonrichter

New member
Why are so many countries using the 5.7
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I guess that has to with the P90 and its quite unique design especially at the time it was first presented. Still, especially the Five-Seven pistol is not nearly as common in the NATO arsenals as 9mm pistols are. Other than in Belgium, where both the P90 and the Five-Seven are widely used, in most other countries the caliber remains reserved rather to special purposes or certain niches and is not the main standard issue sidearm for the common soldier.
 
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Borch

New member
The 5.7 really ins't that popular when you look at just how few countries are deploying it in large quantities. A couple of Euro countries have large scale deployment otherwise it seems to be a special purpose weapon for the most part.

Armor penetration is not a valid consideration for any handgun round. Modern armor, even in soft versions is very capable of stopping any of the listed calibers. Even the miracle 5.7 can't get through a level 4 soft vest and still be capable of doing a lethal amount of damage, let alone any grade of hard armor.

The 9 is simply the best choice caliber wise. As previously stated there's droves ammo throughout the world and it provides the best weight to capacity ratio. I do believe our service weapon is in need of upgrading as is our choice of service round (115 gr FMJ's suck). But neither of these things will happen anytime soon so why not focus on maximizing what is available rather than dreaming about what's not?
 
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simonrichter

New member
Armor penetration is not a valid consideration for any handgun round. Modern armor, even in soft versions is very capable of stopping any of the listed calibers. Even the miracle 5.7 can't get through a level 4 soft vest and still be capable of doing a lethal amount of damage, let alone any grade of hard armor.
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I totally agree with this, but on the other hand wonder why still new PDW calibers are developed and actually issued (e.g. the Chines switching from 9mm to their proprietary 5,8 x 21mm)...
 
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simonrichter

New member
More and more I come to the conclusion that, despite the merits of standardization, the DOD would be well advised to split the bid into one for a standard sidearm, one for a "offensive" SOCOM handgun and maybe one for a survival handgun for pilots...
 
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Bart Noir

New member
Simon, most Marines will never see one of those 1911 handguns.

It is being purchased in relatively small numbers to replace worn-out 1911s that the MARSOC units have never stopped using. Regular Marines, will still use the M9 (or M9A1) from Beretta.

Bart Noir
Who hesitates to call any Marine "regular", for obvious reasons!
 
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simonrichter

New member
The number may not be too large, still 4.000 new guns is more than the few they need for say the Navy's SEALs or thelike. And it's worth noticing that they stick with the old platform in new tarnish (literally) rather than switching to a post-2000 system and also a more modern caliber...
 
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PH/CIB

New member
Never carried a sidearm in the Military...If given a choice for the size and weight,,,I would probably prefer an extra fully loaded rifle magazine or an additional hand grenade and skip the pistol.
 
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LSP972

New member
Read it again, Simon. The contract is for 1200+ pistols, renewable twice. IOW, they buy 1200, wear those out, buy 1200 more, rinse and repeat.

Bart is right.

.
 
3

3kgt2nv

New member
I totally agree with this, but on the other hand wonder why still new PDW calibers are developed and actually issued (e.g. the Chines switching from 9mm to their proprietary 5,8 x 21mm)...
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same reason for the 5.56 damaged inflicted is usually less than lethal requiring more personnel to treat the wounded soldier. we are one of the few countries that still treat our wounded that get involved in foreign wars.
 
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