Missouri House Bill 96

44 AMP

Staff
What do YOU believe "shall not be infringed" means?

I believe the words "shall not be infringed" in the Second Amendment to the US Constitution apply ONLY to the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

The majority of the bill of rights is a listing of things the Federal Government is NOT ALLOWED TO DO.

"Congress shall make no law..."
"shall not be infringed"
"shall not be quartered in private homes..."
"shall not be issued except upon oath..."
"shall not be deprived of life, liberty...without due process.."

Those and the other things are restrictions on GOVERNMENT. They do NOT apply to our interactions with other citizens, except through the framework of government.

The boss at Clucky's Chicken Shack can forbid arms, can forbid you (as an employee) to speak on certain subjects at work.

And they can forbid a number of other things. This is NOT a violation of your or my constitutional rights.
 
44 AMP said:
I believe the words "shall not be infringed" in the Second Amendment to the US Constitution apply ONLY to the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
And the governments of the respective states. See McDonald v. Chicago.

Now let's get back to the topic: a proposed law that would NOT prevent any business from prohibiting the bearing of arms on its premises, but which simply requires that in exchange for that the business accept responsibility/liability for having deprived patrons of their constitutional right to be responsible for their own protection.

As I've already commented, businesses that are open to the public are treated differently under the law than private homes. A business that is open to the public is considered a "place of public accommodation" under the law, and over the years the courts have determined that this status gives government the right to impose certain requirements and restrictions on the business in the interest of furthering some perceived (by the .gov) societal benefit. Thus, we have various civil rights laws that have created a list of "protected classes" of people who cannot be discriminated against on the basis of the characteristic that puts them in that class, such as age, gender, religion, race, etc.

None of the current, protected classes are spelled out in the Constitution. The list was created, and has grown as more classes have been added to the list. The government can add any other characteristic it wants to the list, at any time. The government could decide that bearing arms, as a right guaranteed by the Constitution, is a "civil right" (which I believe it is), and the government could then add arms bearers to the list pf protected classes of people who can't be discriminated against by "places of public accommodation."

But this law doesn't do that. It doesn't force business owners to admit gun bearers if the business doesn't like guns. It simple says, "Okay, you can prohibit guns, but then if a person who wanted to be armed in your place of business gets shot by a robber, you're liable." It's a simple trade-off, a business decision. Economically, is it more advantageous to the business to allow people to carry guns, or is it more advantageous to the business (using whatever metrics the owner chooses to evaluate the perceived benefits) to prohibit guns and to buy insurance to pay for someone being shot if the place gets held up?

Doesn't the government do the same thing to you regarding your personal motor vehicle? In fact, they don't even give you a choice. I don't think there's any state in which it's legal to operate a motor vehicle without carrying liability insurance.
 
It is usually a poor idea to try to introduce statues into tort law, which has traditionally been the sole province of the courts.
 

turkeestalker

New member
Heard on my drive home today that this bill was being considered today in Missouri... just keeping my fingers crossed even though it's probably a long shot.

http://house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills171/hlrbillspdf/0523h.03i.pdf

OK... This is the first line of the pdf. in the link....

Any business enterprise electing to prohibit the possession of firearms or other arms by the placement of signs as authorize d under section 571.107, or other provisions of chapter 571, shall assume custodial responsibility for the safety and defense of any person who is authorized to carry firearms or other arms under chapter 571 while such person is on the premises of the business enterprise.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to private property not used for commercial purposes or private residences of any type. For purposes of this section, "business enterprise" means any business that sells or provides goods or services to the general public.


I've noticed over the years that fewer and fewer businesses make it a point to post the NO CCW signs.
There's still a bunch out there mind you, but fewer than when Missouri initially adopted conceal carry laws and they continue to dwindle.

My hope is that some measure of success with this particular bill, or similar line of thinking, would result in fewer still.

I'll admit that I've not posted a bunch during my time of participating in this forum, but enough not to be confused for a drive by.
 
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FITASC

New member
Normally a post like this is considered bad form (aka "drive by"). Some of us do not like to open blind links. Perhaps you could copy paste a small paragraph and add your own views to it?
 

lefteye

New member
Unfortunately, the proposed legislation states that the prohibition of carrying a firearm is "the proximate cause" of the injury or harm. Prohibition of carrying a firearm probably may increase VERY SLIGHTLY the risk of injury or harm to an individual who might otherwise have been armed, but it does not and cannot CAUSE an injury or harm. Simply put, the fact that I am not carrying a firearm does not CAUSE me to be shot, stabbed, clubbed or run over by a car. The fact that I am not carrying a firearm may dramatically reduce my ability to defend myself but that fact does not CAUSE any injury. The CAUSE of an injury to the victim of any attack is the attacker's attack!!! I hope the proposed legislation will be corrected in this regard.
 
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FITASC

New member
Not trying to bust your chops, just saying it so your informative post doesn't get automatically closed.

Thanks for the post!
 

KyJim

New member
Unfortunately, the proposed legislation states that the prohibition of carrying a firearm is "the proximate cause" of the injury or harm.
That is incorrect. The bill states, in part:
4. The standard of proof for tort actions under this section shall require that a plaintiff show by preponderance of the evidence that . . .
(d) The business enterprise's prohibition on carrying firearms or other arms was the proximate cause of the damages, loss, or injury suffered by the plaintiff. . . .
So it requires the victim prove the business was the proximate cause of the injury (among other things). My tort law is rusty but I think the assailant would probably almost always be the proximate cause of the injury. But proximate cause is kind of a slippery concept and varies in different jurisdictions.
 
4. The standard of proof for tort actions under this section shall require that a plaintiff show by preponderance of the evidence that . . .
(d) The business enterprise's prohibition on carrying firearms or other arms was the proximate cause of the damages, loss, or injury suffered by the plaintiff. . . .
Sticking that in there pretty much negates the value of passing the law. What's the point? A plaintiff could sue a business today and win if he/she could show that the prohibition was the proximate cause of the loss or injury.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Any business enterprise electing to prohibit the possession of firearms or other arms by the placement of signs as authorize d under section 571.107, or other provisions of chapter 571, shall assume custodial responsibility for the safety and defense of any person who is authorized to carry firearms or other arms under chapter 571 while such person is on the premises of the business enterprise.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to private property not used for commercial purposes or private residences of any type. For purposes of this section, "business enterprise" means any business that sells or provides goods or services to the general public.

If this was all the bill said, and it stopped there, I could support it 100%.

Unfortunately, it's not all the bill says.
 
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