Missouri House Bill 96

motorhead0922

New member
A bill has been pre-filed in Missouri's House for consideration next year that would require some property owners to take responsibility for the safety of those they require to be unarmed in order to enter their premises.

Springfield News-leader said:
The proposal, known as House Bill 96, which would apply when a person who is authorized to carry a firearm, is prohibited from doing so by a business and is then injured by another person or an animal.

If the injured person could otherwise have used a gun for self-defense, they could sue the business, which "assume(s) custodial responsibility for the safety and defense of any person" on their property who could carry.

That's an interesting phrase, "custodial responsibility". I have not heard that before.

Basically, I think that if someone takes your means of self-defense away, they should be accountable for that decision. This bill would do that.

Newspaper article:
http://www.news-leader.com/story/ne...usinesses-if-injured-gun-free-zones/94805174/

Link to text of the bill:
http://house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills171/hlrbillspdf/0523h.03i.pdf

In case the PDF goes away, here is what it says:

HB96 said:
Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the state of Missouri, as follows:
Section A. Chapter 571, RSMo, is amended by adding thereto one new section, to be known as section 571.069, to read as follows:
571.069. 1. Any business enterprise electing to prohibit the possession of firearms or other arms by the placement of signs as authorize d under section 571.107, or other provisions of chapter 571, shall assume custodial responsibility for the safety and defense of any person who is authorized to carry firearms or other arms under chapter 571 while such person is on the premises of the business enterprise. The provisions of this section shall not apply to private property not used for commercial purposes or private residences of any type. For purposes of this section, "business enterprise" means any business that sells or provides goods or services to the general public.
2. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the requirement to ensure safety and defense under subsection 1 of this section shall include a mandatory and explicit duty to defend persons authorized to carry firearms or other arms under chapter 571 against the intentional or reckless conduct of third parties including, but not limited to, persons who are trespasse rs, employees, customers, or other invitees of the business enterprise. The requirement to ensure safety and defense shall also include a duty to defend persons authorized to carry firearms or other arms against vicious animals and wild animals. The duty to defend such persons under this subsection shall apply only to the defense against conduct that could reasonably have been prevented by the use of arms in lawful self-defense. If a business enterprise restricts the possession of firearms or other arms under chapter 571, then such business shall post, together with the notice and sign required under section 571.107, notice stating that persons authorized to carry firearms or other arms under chapter 571 are under the custodial responsibility of the business entity.
3. A person authorized to carry firearms or other arms under chapter 571 who is injured, suffers bodily injury or death, incurs economic loss or expense, or suffers property damage as a result of conduct breaching the duty to defend such person shall have a cause of action against a business entity prohibiting the possession of firearms or other arms under chapter 571.
4. The standard of proof for tort actions under this section shall require that a
plaintiff show by preponderance of the evidence that:
(a) He or she was authorized to carry firearms or other arms under chapter 571;
(b) He or she was lawfully prohibited from carrying firearms or other arms by reason of a sign voluntarily posted by a business enterprise under section 571.107;
(c) He or she was prohibited from carrying firearms by a business enterprise that is not required to prohibit firearms or othe r arms under state or federal law or by a rule or policy enacted by a political subdivision or the state contracting with such business entity; and
(d) The business enterprise's prohibition on carrying firearms or other arms was the proximate cause of the damages, loss, or injury suffered by the plaintiff.
5. If a plaintiff is successful in a lawsuit under this section, then he or she shall be entitled to reasonable attorneys' fees, expert witness costs, and court costs.
6. The statute of limitations for an action under this section shall be two years from the date of the occurrence giving rise to the damages, loss, or injury.

I encourage all you Missourians to support this legislation.
 
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This part really gives me pause:

a mandatory and explicit duty to defend persons authorized to carry firearms or other arms under chapter 571 against the intentional or reckless conduct of third parties including, but not limited to, persons who are trespasse rs, employees, customers, or other invitees of the business enterprise.

I'd rather businesses not prohibit the carry of firearms, but this has wider potential implications. What if I ban carry and hire armed security to protect customers, but the armed security isn't enough? What if this sets a precedent inspiring laws requiring me to ensure customers' safety against hurricanes and tornadoes?
 

motorhead0922

New member
The armed security question is a good one. That would be a bit of a gray area.

As for the storms, it's not a great analogy, but if the business prohibited people from bringing a warning device (smart phone, portable radio, etc) into the building, and a storm struck and injured those inside, then I'd support a law to hold the owner liable.
 

44 AMP

Staff
What if I ban carry and hire armed security to protect customers, but the armed security isn't enough? What if this sets a precedent inspiring laws requiring me to ensure customers' safety against hurricanes and tornadoes?

If you provide armed security, and it fails, then you made a good faith effort, and should not be liable. Quite a different matter than banning carry and then doing NOTHING else to protect your customers (and your empoyees! safe workplace laws, forseeable risks, etc)

Storms, hurricanes, tornados, floods, earthquakes, volcanos, etc., are not acts of individuals. They are "acts of God" (if that term is still acceptable?) No one, anywhere can blame anyone for those.

(human caused global warming/climate change fanatics excepted...):rolleyes:
 

jdc1244

New member
Such measures are unnecessary and unwarranted, a ‘solution’ in search of a ‘problem’ that doesn’t exist.

The state would be acting in bad faith, an example of government excess and overreach in its ham-handed attempt to force private business owners to allow firearms on their property subject to threat of civil punitive action.

The proposed law is nothing but a childish temper-tantrum on the part of misguided ‘gun rights’ advocates hostile to private property owners with whom they disagree.
 

steve4102

New member
motorhead0922 said:
I am a fan of Tennessee's recently passed law that requires some property owners to take responsibility for the safety of those they require to be unarmed in order to enter their premises

TN has no such law.

I think you may be referring to TN SB 1736.

Seen here.

http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/109/Amend/SA0692.pdf

This bill does not put safety responsibility on business that post No-Guns signs.

It places immunity on those that do NOT post a sign, it does not place liability on those that DO post a No-Guns sign.
 

motorhead0922

New member
steve4102, I find that you are correct. In its original form, it was very close to the proposed Missouri law. Then it was amended (gutted) and replaced with the version you linked to.

I revised the original post to remove the reference to Tennessee.
 
jdc1244 said:
Such measures are unnecessary and unwarranted, a ‘solution’ in search of a ‘problem’ that doesn’t exist.

The state would be acting in bad faith, an example of government excess and overreach in its ham-handed attempt to force private business owners to allow firearms on their property subject to threat of civil punitive action.

The proposed law is nothing but a childish temper-tantrum on the part of misguided ‘gun rights’ advocates hostile to private property owners with whom they disagree.
I disagree entirely.

I have a carry permit and I carry for self defense. If I am barred from entering a business that's open to the public unless I disarm (and thereby give up my means of self defense) ... there IS a "problem."

I don't see anything in this that's "hostile to to private property owners." It respects an owner's right to ban firearms from his property but, since the property exists to bring the public in for profit, it provides a balance between the property owner's right to ban firearms and the public's desire to be safe.
 

steve4102

New member
It's bad legislation and it should be killed in committee.

If I am barred from entering a business that's open to the public unless I disarm (and thereby give up my means of self defense)

You have not given up your "means of self defense", find another way, or stay out of a business that does not want yours.
 
Steve4102 said:
You have not given up your "means of self defense", find another way, or stay out of a business that does not want yours.
I certainly would be giving up my chosen means of self defense. What else is available to me? I'm a senior citizen, a veteran with a partial disability, a surgically-repaired heart, and a bad back and bad knees. I'm not capable of going mano a mano with some young turk on my best day, and in any case Muay Thai isn't any defense against a shooter with a backpack full of magazines.

https://youtu.be/7YyBtMxZgQs?t=12

The whole point is that these business DO want our business, but they want it on their terms and without accepting responsibility for requiring us to give up our chosen means of self defense.
 

jmhyer

New member
I tend to agree that it's a bad idea. As already pointed out, you always have the option of not entering such businesses. Therefore, if you disarm and enter, you have chosen to do so. You haven't been forced.
 

ATN082268

New member
jmhyer said:
I tend to agree that it's a bad idea. As already pointed out, you always have the option of not entering such businesses. Therefore, if you disarm and enter, you have chosen to do so. You haven't been forced.

The problem with that is there are sometimes no good or viable alternatives. If its a trivial matter like going to the movies, then you can easily choose not to see the movie. If its a more serious matter like picking up your prescription at the pharmacy, then it could literally be an issue of life or death. You might be able to find ways around it (without disarming) or you might not. As a side note, I'm curious about the damage caused at businesses by mass or deliberate shootings compared to that of accidental discharges.
 

44 AMP

Staff
The problem with that is there are sometimes no good or viable alternatives.

Whether or not choices are good, or viable to you personally is a matter of complete indifference to the law. All that matter is that you do have a choice, and that the law is obeyed.

The choice doesn't have to be easy, or convenient. Nor does the choice have to be risk free. TO the law, it doesn't matter. You have a choice. Doesn't matter if the choice that suits you costs you more than the one that doesn't. You have a choice.

As long as you are not compelled by LAW, you have a choice.

And, sorry, I don't buy picking up your meds at the pharmacy as a good example of a life and death matter. (not about having needed meds, about picking them up) I get calls all the time from people wanting me to set up my meds to be delivered in my mailbox. If you're concerned about being unarmed visiting the drugstore, why not simply do that, instead??

its a choice. Maybe not a good choice, from your point of view, but I already covered that....
 

ATN082268

New member
44 AMP said:
Whether or not choices are good, or viable to you personally is a matter of complete indifference to the law. All that matter is that you do have a choice, and that the law is obeyed.

I never stated or implied that someone should break the law. My arguments were regarding the making of policy and law.

44 AMP said:
And, sorry, I don't buy picking up your meds at the pharmacy as a good example of a life and death matter. (not about having needed meds, about picking them up) I get calls all the time from people wanting me to set up my meds to be delivered in my mailbox. If you're concerned about being unarmed visiting the drugstore, why not simply do that, instead??

My prescription example was just one example. I could come up with more examples and I'm sure you (or someone else) can come up with more counter arguments against them.

If you hold the position that there are no situations, or so few they don't matter, that are serious enough to warrant overriding a property owner's no gun policy or making them liable for the consequences of having a no gun policy, then I respect (but disagree with) your position. If not, then we are in agreement, at least on the larger issue.

As for my prescription example though, what do you do if your prescription was stolen and you needed the meds right then? See, I can come up with counter arguments too :)
 

44 AMP

Staff
I never meant to imply you were advocating breaking the law. I didn't see that at all.

If you hold the position that there are no situations, or so few they don't matter, that are serious enough to warrant overriding a property owner's no gun policy or making them liable for the consequences of having a no gun policy, then I respect (but disagree with) your position.

Ok, we have two different matters here, and while linked, they are not the same, nor are they inseparable.

Overridding property owner's rights is one issue, making property owners responsible for the results of a no gun policy is a quite different matter.

Overriding any right, by another citizen, and by the government are also two different matters. Government may override any right at direst need, for the greater good. (keeping them from doing that, and from doing it at their own convenience, rather than actual need is the trick ;))

There is a legal framework and due process to allow for this.

You and I, as private citizens do not have that legal authority. Our desire to be armed, for our personal safety does not automatically override the property owner's right to set his rules on his property. Until, and unless the High Court rules otherwise, in order to follow the law, we must respect that.

Making property owners legally responsible for the potential (and forseeable) consequences of a no gun policy (and not legally requiring them to protect you -which is something we should not force them to do) makes them make a choice.

They can keep their no gun policy, and do nothing. This exposes them to liability if something bad happens. it is then their choice to run that risk.

They can keep their no gun policy, and take steps to provide security, in which case, their liability is reduced if they make a good faith effort.

They can abandon the no (legal) guns policy, in which case, responsibility and liability fall back where they belong, on us, as individuals.

Sure, from their point of view they aren't good choices, but as I've pointed out, the law doesn't care if they are good choices, only that there are choices.

As for my prescription example though, what do you do if your prescription was stolen and you needed the meds right then?

IF you mean that your meds are stolen from your house, or from your person (purse, etc.) and you need a pill tonight or you're gonna die, you go to the hospital (emergency room to start with), or your regular pharmacy, if open. They will get you enough medication to get you through until you can obtain more through normal channels.

If you are someplace where you are at serious risk going to the hospital/DR/pharmacy unarmed, you should seriously consider making some of those very difficult choices. Like moving somewhere else.

I'm not trying to be snarky. People say, all the time, that they can't move. They can't afford it. What they really mean is they don't want to move because it will adversely affect their lifestyle. I understand that. I even agree with that, until you life (and family) is in danger. If you are in that situation, you need to get out, period. No job, no house, no amount of money is worth your life, and if you have a family its even more important.

Nobody wants to be a refugee with only the clothes on their back, but if it takes that much to stay alive, that's what you do.

Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it.:D
 

motorhead0922

New member
44amp said:
Whether or not choices are good, or viable to you personally is a matter of complete indifference to the law. All that matter is that you do have a choice, and that the law is obeyed.

Not true. The law is also concerned about whether the property owner created or allowed a dangerous condition which contributes to an injury. It's been proven over and over that criminals target "gun free" zones, expecting no resistance. The posting of firearms restrictions creates a more dangerous situation than having no restriction.

This proposed law in no way prevents the property owner from prohibiting firearms. It is his or her choice to make.

Edit: 44amp I see you discussed choices and posted while I was typing this!
 

motorhead0922

New member
44amp said:
They can keep their no gun policy, and do nothing. This exposes them to liability if something bad happens. it is then their choice to run that risk.

They can keep their no gun policy, and take steps to provide security, in which case, their liability is reduced if they make a good faith effort.

They can abandon the no (legal) guns policy, in which case, responsibility and liability fall back where they belong, on us, as individuals.

Gosh, 44amp, the scenario you just described is what this law would insure.
 

steve4102

New member
motorhead0922 said:
Not true. The law is also concerned about whether the property owner created or allowed a dangerous condition which contributes to an injury. It's been proven over and over that criminals target "gun free" zones, expecting no resistance. The posting of firearms restrictions creates a more dangerous situation than having no restriction.

So far our courts have ruled that a property owners that has a no firearms policy are not responsible for the Illegal acts of a third party.

So much so, that those that sued for damages, not only lost on legal grounds, they were stuck with paying the legal fees of the movie theater to the tune of 700+K.

This is bad legislation and if passed will most likely be challenged and stuck down.
 

shootniron

New member
Terrible legislation...just terrible.

Government overreach...if passed, it will be challenged and an injunction will put it on hold, if carried up the court ladder....SCOTUS will uphold the lower court.
 
For those who think this proposed law is a terrible idea, and an infringement of the property owners' rights -- how do you feel about civil rights laws that prohibit businesses from refusing to serve blacks, or Hispanics, or Jews, or Muslims, or homosexuals?

If you accept those laws because they preserve a civil right, then how about adding permitted firearms carriers to the list of people who can't be discriminated against? After all, the "right" to keep and bear arms is enshrined in the Constitution, so this should fall right in line with the recognition of other classes of people who can't be discriminated against because to do so is a violation of their civil rights.
 
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