MIM parts on my newest SA 1911

[yustinus1973]

My S&W 4006TSW has a MIM hammer, and some other parts. At first i was apprehensive about this, but iv had it for a while now, and am not that worried about it that much any more. If the MIM parts are made well i would not see any problem with them being used in a pistol.

 

[WVsig]

I've also spoken at length with two metallurgists who agree. Their explanations were detailed and solid.

IMHO this misses the mark of why there is a debate. The process of MIM is not in question. There is good MIM and bad MIM. There is good casting and there is bad casting. There are good forging and there are bad forgings. Unless your metalurgists know the exact process each manufacture in question is using at the time a particular guns is produced their insight into the process really does not apply.

My issue with MIM is the philosophy which created its use in the gun industry and other industries. It is not there to improve the pistol. It is there to reduce the cost, time and speed of production. It is there to cut a corner/reduce production cost. The "good enough" mentality is why MIM is used. It is the mindset that says a quality forged part is not necessary and MIM is "good enough".

The industry knows that the avg pistol sold in the USA is not going to see more than a few thousand rounds in its life time. If it is only going to be shot 5000 times why build it to last 10,000? The avg consumer would never know the difference because they shoot it a few times a year. It is cheaper to make them all at this level and then fix the ones which break or are shot to the point of failure. It is not just the gun industry that employs this mentality. You see it in everything from cars to electronics to airplanes.

The sad reality is that we the consumer are the cause of all of this. We want a gun with everything and want it for $800. If they can do it for $800 we then ask them to do it for $600. If we think that the $400 RIA is good enough we buy that. We drive companies to make it cheaper and cheaper and demand a lower and lower price point with each generation of the product. Looks at the life cycle of computer hardware. Chipsets can not hold a price point for even 6 months. People paid $500+ for a blue ray DVD player when they came out and you can buy one now with the same features for $100. As a whole we no longer pay for quality. Lowest price point incorrectly in our minds= best value.

OK rant over. I echo what others have stated. Unless this is a heavy use 5,000+ round a year gun being used in a defense pistol roll I would not bother replacing all the MIM parts. Shoot enough rounds say 1000+ to know it does not have defective parts, most bad mim breaks early and often, and then replace parts as needed.

 

[2damnold4this]

My issue with MIM is the philosophy which created its use in the gun industry and other industries. It is not there to improve the pistol. It is there to reduce the cost, time and speed of production. It is there to cut a corner/reduce production cost. The "good enough" mentality is why MIM is used. It is the mindset that says a quality forged part is not necessary and MIM is "good enough".

I think a reduction in cost with no loss of function is an improvement. If we want a handmade masterpiece, we can pay for it. If we want something that works properly for a low cost, we get that with modern production techniques.

 

[WVsig]

I think a reduction in cost with no loss of function is an improvement. If we want a handmade masterpiece, we can pay for it. If we want something that works properly for a low cost, we get that with modern production techniques.

Ask Kimber and Sig owners how that philosophy is working out. The issue is that they do not do enough R&D to know if it will be functional. Plus they are constantly seeking the lowest price point. Look at Sig and checkmate mags. Big step down from Mecgar and the consumer is paying for it.

Kimber went from quality MIM to squeezing every penny they could out of it until the point of failure.

 

[Tom Servo]

Kimber went from quality MIM to squeezing every penny they could out of it until the point of failure.

The use of MIM parts is pretty low on my list of Kimber's sins. I'm more concerned with the poor fitting, the rust issues with their barrels, and their emphasis on proprietary internals.

If we want a handmade masterpiece, we can pay for it.

This comes up all the time among S&W revolver fans. If I want a top notch modern revolver, the modern ones are excellent. If I want one made just like they were in 1958, blessed with the tears of Carl Hellstrom, and with only forged parts, I need to expect to pay $2000 or more. MIM (along with CNC machinery) is a more cost-effective way to ensure manufacturing consistency without sacrificing quality.

 

[cookie5]

Quality 1911s do not have MIM parts in them. Simple.

 

[Kreyzhorse]

I have a Springfield TRP that I'm sure has some MIM in it. The gun shoots great and operates flawlessly.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about replacing them as they are unlikely to cause any issues. While they can break, I don't believe Springfield has a problem with their MIM parts breaking.

 

[Hammerhead]

Quality 1911s do not have MIM parts in them. Simple.

Yeah, simple, just spend $2,500.

 

[KyJim]

Yeah, simple, just spend $2,500.

Or spend $1300 for a Dan Wesson with no MIM parts or less than $900 for a Colt with two MIM parts (and polymer MSH).

 

[HKFan9]

An out of spec part is an out of spec part.. no matter how its made. I have had Kimbers and Springers.. and I have had Colt's and hand built 1911's by gun smith friends. I never had any issues with any of them.

I pro-staff ordered a Springfield Champion operator I planned on changing all the internals on. Honestly I have other projects that got put in line over that because they gun runs and shoot amazing. I don't loose sleep at night over MIM parts. I can see why one would pay more for no MIM.

 

[HKGuns]

Quality 1911s do not have MIM parts in them. Simple.

Simple is, as simple does I guess, when it comes to slinging horse****.

is a more cost-effective way to ensure manufacturing consistency without sacrificing quality

Well said Tom, it is amazing to me how so many are so resistant to change and unwilling to educate themselves beyond internet hyperbole. Which, (surprise), is usually spread by some snake oil salesman trying to make a buck.

 

[10mm4ever]

One of THE most respected fighting 1911's has MIM parts and that's the Springfield TRP. Springfield has the MIM "thing" down pat. If not for the net, no one would ever know the difference.

 

[WVsig]

One of THE most respected fighting 1911's has MIM parts and that's the Springfield TRP. Springfield has the MIM "thing" down pat. If not for the net, no one would ever know the difference.

I love marketing hype. You do realize that the TRP is an attempt to copy the Professional model that is the "real" world fighting pistol used by the FBI, which ironically also has 2 MIM parts, IIRC.

Its a good gun but you are attributing marketing hype as fact.

Again nothing wrong with the process of MIM it is the excusing and the philosophy one can have a legitimate beef with. If it meets your needs and your price point go for it. Its your money not mine. If given the choice between 2 pistols at the same price point I am going to choose the one with less MIM. Personally I choose a LNIB used Les Baer TRS over a gun like the TRP. YMMV

 

[jaughtman]

Not to flame (more)....

Quality 1911s do not have MIM parts in them. Simple.

BUT, you would have to narrow down "quality" 1911's and that, my friend, is simply impossible. Whatever your view of "quality 1911" is (I am assuming it is NONE of the copies with MIM), it is simply your thought of what a quality (there goes that description again) 1911 is. In other words, any model you decided was not "quality" (whatever that means), would be left out. You really need to put some measureable statistics in your argument.

J

 

[Carry_24/7]

JaughtMan; right on. A blanket statement such as that, especially with the broad field of 1911s, can't stand.

If quality is based on "bang" every time the trigger is pulled, and great accuracy, why do many of us have 1911s that are so and have MIM parts? If not, what is a quality 1911?

 

[WVsig]

When I think of defining quality in terms of manufacturing I think of Deming.

In the 1970s, Dr. Deming's philosophy was summarized by some of his Japanese proponents with the following 'a'-versus-'b' comparison:

(a) When people and organizations focus primarily on quality, defined by the following ratio, quality tends to increase and costs fall over time.

(b) However, when people and organizations focus primarily on costs, costs tend to rise and quality declines over time.

This is a simple ratio which is telling.

When it comes to evaluating quality I think of a company or product in terms of Deming 7 deadly sins. For me the ones that apply to guns and gun manufcturing companies are in bold. I often ask myself how many of these "sins" is a particular company committing.

Lack of constancy of purpose
Emphasis on short-term profits
Evaluation by performance, merit rating, or annual review of performance
Mobility of management
Excessive medical costs
Running a company on visible figures alone
Excessive costs of warranty, fueled by lawyers who work for contingency fees

Then one can consider his “Lesser Category of Obstacles”:

Neglecting long-range planning
Relying on technology to solve problems
Seeking examples to follow rather than developing solutions
Excuses, such as “Our problems are different”

Unless you work at these companies you cannot know the exact processes using in manufacturing or the exact motivations but that does not mean we cannot make evaluations.

I try to determine how many of these "sins" the company is committing. This can give you an outside snap shot of the "Quality" of a company. For me this is better than picking up one example and declaring something. Looking at multiple examples over time and applying this type of system is the only way for a consumer to measure quality.

Applying these to pistols like the 1911 is not an easy task and there is not necessarily a universal correct answer but IMHO if you are not thinking in these types of terms you are not really considering "quality" you are considering "perception." This applies directly to the MIM debate IMHO.

 

[mavracer]

I don't mind MIM parts so much as the principle of getting what I pay for. If brand R wants to cast everything to keep there cost down and passes that value along to the cust that's fine. If brand C uses machined parts and raises the cost, well that's understandable. My problem comes when brand K wants to use brand R's cast parts and charge the customer more than brand C

 

[KC Rob]

Do Ed Brown handguns have any MIM (metal injection molded) parts?

No, we use no MIM parts in Ed Brown firearms. While the current thinking is that MIM parts are "good enough" for firearm applications, this thinking doesn't fit with our philosophy at all. All Ed Brown parts are made from either forgings, bar stock steel, or quality investment castings.

From the FAQ on Ed Brown's website.

 

[Hammerhead]

Simple, just buy and Ed Brown.

Y'all have $2,500 lying around, don't you? Heck, I proll'y have that much in the couch cushions. Simple.

 

[dahermit]

My issue with MIM is the philosophy which created its use in the gun industry and other industries. It is not there to improve the pistol. It is there to reduce the cost, time and speed of production. It is there to cut a corner/reduce production cost. The "good enough" mentality is why MIM is used. It is the mindset that says a quality forged part is not necessary and MIM is "good enough".

This overlooks one of the less stated reasons for using MIM to manufacture parts. I have read in metallurgy text books, that one of the advantages of using powder metallurgy is that it is possible to obtain parts made up of metals that will not alloy in the molten state (stock for forging, etc.), but will nevertheless result in the desirable properties as if alloyed, in the resultant MIM part.
I do not know if it was such a part, but remember some gun manufacturer years ago, with an MIM "...copper-berylium, unbreakable firing pin..."
So, it would seem that there can be other reasons and motives behind MIM parts production.