military use of .22lr (and other "minor" handgun calibers)
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carguychris
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IIRC .380/9x17 pistols were used by a number of small European militaries prior to WWII (e.g. FN Browning 1922), and when such countries were overrun by the Nazis, some of these pistols were adopted as substitute standards complete with Waffenamt markings and designations.
Additionally, IIRC the .380 Beretta Model 1934 was the standard sidearm of Italian army officers during WWII.
Additionally, IIRC the .380 Beretta Model 1934 was the standard sidearm of Italian army officers during WWII.
Powers was technically CIA and not military, although early U-2 flights were informal hybrid USAF/CIA operations in practice, and the Soviets were able to fairly easily discern the quasi-military nature of Powers' flight and U-2 operations in general—but I digress.44 AMP said:
I have a Mauser HSc in .32acp (7,65mm Browning) with the WaA pruf stamp.
Nazi marked, all steel gun, compared to new design .32s, its a brick! (heavy)
This is, however a comfort to me, because it simply feels ...solid. And I want a ..solid.. feeling gun, in .32acp, so that after I have expended all the rounds, I have something with some weight in my hand to hit my attacker with...
The Nazi administration was always critically short of pistols. The main reason was that nearly every uniform included a pistol (and a dress dagger for really formal wear) and nearly every job wore a uniform, not just the military, but political party people, and civil servants as well.
Service class (9mm) capture guns (which includes those made under occupation) nearly always went to the military, and especially the Waffen SS in the early war years, Smaller caliber guns most often (but not always) went to political administrators, and civil service workers, and Nazi Germany had a lot of those, from the postman to the dog catcher to the guy who sold the tickets at the train station.
Nazi marked, all steel gun, compared to new design .32s, its a brick! (heavy)
This is, however a comfort to me, because it simply feels ...solid. And I want a ..solid.. feeling gun, in .32acp, so that after I have expended all the rounds, I have something with some weight in my hand to hit my attacker with...
The Nazi administration was always critically short of pistols. The main reason was that nearly every uniform included a pistol (and a dress dagger for really formal wear) and nearly every job wore a uniform, not just the military, but political party people, and civil servants as well.
Service class (9mm) capture guns (which includes those made under occupation) nearly always went to the military, and especially the Waffen SS in the early war years, Smaller caliber guns most often (but not always) went to political administrators, and civil service workers, and Nazi Germany had a lot of those, from the postman to the dog catcher to the guy who sold the tickets at the train station.
44AMP...I gathered a lot of history on the matter and Nazi officers and officials, not necessarily in combat, seemed to prefer the smallest sidearm they could get....25 ACP and .32s, as kind of a badge of rank.
Of course, when the general population has been disarmed, even the smallest caliber handgun is not a major handicap
Of course, when the general population has been disarmed, even the smallest caliber handgun is not a major handicap
I found a Hi standard 22 in MR-1, it was actually given to me by a Marine when they were
turning command over to Army XXIV Corps. He had it " off the books" no silencer and not
threaded. I think they were used for officers pistol training and Navy had them in survival
lockers on ships. Their was all kind of handguns that made their way to RVn. The only
Ruger 22 I ever saw was a Old Mk1 Target that a Huey pilot was carrying and it wasn't
govt marked as most off the wall pistols. I once saw a Portugese Luger in a pile of captured
weapons. Nothing would surprise me with them being in a state of war since well before the
WW2.
turning command over to Army XXIV Corps. He had it " off the books" no silencer and not
threaded. I think they were used for officers pistol training and Navy had them in survival
lockers on ships. Their was all kind of handguns that made their way to RVn. The only
Ruger 22 I ever saw was a Old Mk1 Target that a Huey pilot was carrying and it wasn't
govt marked as most off the wall pistols. I once saw a Portugese Luger in a pile of captured
weapons. Nothing would surprise me with them being in a state of war since well before the
WW2.
Kilibreaux
New member
The "lowly" .22LR is still the ideal suppressed weapon.
I recall reading in the American Rifleman in the early 80's,of the ammo listed bu the various ordance commans for th Services.
It had .22LR, 22MWR, 32S&W [all variants], ,38S&W, .32qcp, .380ACP, etc., and it was from a congressional committtee wonder why the various cartridgfes??
this was just before the 1911'a were retired, I believe.
It had .22LR, 22MWR, 32S&W [all variants], ,38S&W, .32qcp, .380ACP, etc., and it was from a congressional committtee wonder why the various cartridgfes??
this was just before the 1911'a were retired, I believe.
I never saw a 22 used in Vietnam, but then I didnt get to town much. I carried a M1911a1, mainly because when we got to an area where there was a chow line and you always had to have a weapon, the pistol was easier to get through a chow line then a M-60.
Later I joined the NG, and worked my way up to run the marksmanship unit. We had tons of 22s. Mostly High Standard Target Models and Smith 41s. We did get a lot of Ruger 22 pistols for the Units to use in practice and competition.
The Army has always had some sort of sub cal or reduced caliber arms (rifle and pistol) do to the lack of outdoor ranges for NG Units in urban locations.
Most were gallery loads for the service rifle/pistol. At the time we went to full auto weapons (M16s and such) 22s were used. Pistols and Rifles.
I dont know of a book for pistols but Thomas D. Batha has an excellent sourse for rifesl "U.S. Martial .22 RF Rifles". Expensive but a good read.
22 Pistols were quite common for training in the Army. Again I think High Standard was the most common until the Ruger 22s came out. They kind of put everyone else out of business in supplying cheap good quality 22 training pistols.
Checking google for 22 Military Pistols brings up a lot of links for the High Standard, but not much for other brands.
I remember during the switch from the M1911s to Beretta, they stopped buying 45 ammo. Then the problem with the Beretta slides came about and we had no ammo for the existing 45s.
The Wilson Matches (National Guard Championships) went to all 22s for the pistol competitions. It was like I mentioned earlier, the Guard was buying tons of Rugers and they were the most common during this period.
22 training slacked off after the Army started buying 45 ammo from Israel which held us off until Beretta fixed the slide problem.
I retired in '92 and I dont know what happened to the 22 programs. I know the H&R Model 12 (5200) rifles mostly went to the CMP but I don't know where the pistols went, or if they still have them.
Later I joined the NG, and worked my way up to run the marksmanship unit. We had tons of 22s. Mostly High Standard Target Models and Smith 41s. We did get a lot of Ruger 22 pistols for the Units to use in practice and competition.
The Army has always had some sort of sub cal or reduced caliber arms (rifle and pistol) do to the lack of outdoor ranges for NG Units in urban locations.
Most were gallery loads for the service rifle/pistol. At the time we went to full auto weapons (M16s and such) 22s were used. Pistols and Rifles.
I dont know of a book for pistols but Thomas D. Batha has an excellent sourse for rifesl "U.S. Martial .22 RF Rifles". Expensive but a good read.
22 Pistols were quite common for training in the Army. Again I think High Standard was the most common until the Ruger 22s came out. They kind of put everyone else out of business in supplying cheap good quality 22 training pistols.
Checking google for 22 Military Pistols brings up a lot of links for the High Standard, but not much for other brands.
I remember during the switch from the M1911s to Beretta, they stopped buying 45 ammo. Then the problem with the Beretta slides came about and we had no ammo for the existing 45s.
The Wilson Matches (National Guard Championships) went to all 22s for the pistol competitions. It was like I mentioned earlier, the Guard was buying tons of Rugers and they were the most common during this period.
22 training slacked off after the Army started buying 45 ammo from Israel which held us off until Beretta fixed the slide problem.
I retired in '92 and I dont know what happened to the 22 programs. I know the H&R Model 12 (5200) rifles mostly went to the CMP but I don't know where the pistols went, or if they still have them.
peacefulgary
New member
Back in 1986, at Ft. Sill, one Drill Sgt. would use a pellet gun to shoot pigeons on the outside balcony/walkway of the barracks (we called it pigeon alley and we had to clean up the bird poop every morning....and pick up the dead pigeons that the Drill Sgt. shot).
Hammerhead
New member
.22lr 1911 conversions were the only weapons we fired in Navy boot camp back in 1978.
They were still using them in August of 1986, when I was at RTC San Diego
Had to wait until "A" school to get my rifle ribbon!
stuckinthe60s
New member
mk2's were in the seal teams in the 90's.
many 22's with military markings ended up in MWR inventory for use at 'on base' ranges as loaners.
as bases closed their ranges for any and all the reasons we know, what wasn't destroyed or sent to deep storage, are finding their way into civilian hands as they are auctioned off as base surplus.
I can attest that there are hoards of high standard u.s. marked 22's at NWS Crane In. its been discussed many times to give them as award guns at military EIC matches. and of course.....to CMP.
if anyone wants to read some history about MATCH 22's in the military, I recommend :
'u.s military match and marksmanship automatic pistols,' Lincoln, R.I., 176pgs, 2005, mowbray inc, publishers
many 22's with military markings ended up in MWR inventory for use at 'on base' ranges as loaners.
as bases closed their ranges for any and all the reasons we know, what wasn't destroyed or sent to deep storage, are finding their way into civilian hands as they are auctioned off as base surplus.
I can attest that there are hoards of high standard u.s. marked 22's at NWS Crane In. its been discussed many times to give them as award guns at military EIC matches. and of course.....to CMP.
if anyone wants to read some history about MATCH 22's in the military, I recommend :
'u.s military match and marksmanship automatic pistols,' Lincoln, R.I., 176pgs, 2005, mowbray inc, publishers
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stuckinthe60s
New member
as far as skeet and trap ranges... as asked earlier, the military is slowly closing them all. epa crap.
since I live close to these, nas oceana, nas pax river, and ft lee in va are still alive. numerous navy base skeet ranges on the eastern seaboard are still open.
in the last 20 years, ive witnessed the closing of ft Eustis' and Langley afbs'.
since I live close to these, nas oceana, nas pax river, and ft lee in va are still alive. numerous navy base skeet ranges on the eastern seaboard are still open.
in the last 20 years, ive witnessed the closing of ft Eustis' and Langley afbs'.
Never saw any .22's in the hands of Delta, or Mike strike force guys while I was in country with 5th Special Forces...nor any talk about .22's...but there were lots of strange anomalies during that war so it may be possible. Thompsons, M1 Carbines, Lugers, P38's, a couple Ruger SA's, 37 & 57 MM recoiless rifles, lots of Russian crap, Swedish "K's", 8mm Mausers with scopes, Remington and Winchester .308 & .30-06 bolt actions with anodized scopes, and Hi-Powers a plenty but no .22's. YMMV, Rod
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