Military Ammo Sucks?

homefires

New member
Has anyone seen this! Looks like .223 an't doing the job so well!



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Monday, May 26, 2008
WASHINGTON - As Sgt. Joe Higgins patrolled the streets of Saba al-Bor, a tough town north of Baghdad, he was armed with bullets that had a lot more firepower than those of his 4th Infantry Division buddies.

As an Army sniper, Higgins was one of the select few toting an M14. The long-barreled rifle, an imposing weapon built for wars long past, spits out bullets larger and more deadly than the rounds that fit into the M4 carbines and M16 rifles that most soldiers carry.

"Having a heavy cartridge in an urban environment like that was definitely a good choice," says Higgins, who did two tours in Iraq and left the service last year. "It just has more stopping power."

Strange as it sounds, nearly seven years into the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bullets are a controversial subject for the U.S.

The smaller, steel-penetrating M855 rounds continue to be a weak spot in the American arsenal. They are not lethal enough to bring down an enemy decisively, and that puts troops at risk, according to Associated Press interviews.

Designed decades ago to puncture a Soviet soldier's helmet hundreds of yards away, the M855 rounds are being used for very different targets in Iraq and Afghanistan. Much of today's fighting takes place in close quarters; narrow streets, stairways and rooftops are today's battlefield. Legions of armor-clad Russians marching through the Fulda Gap in Germany have given way to insurgents and terrorists who hit and run.

Fired at short range, the M855 round is prone to pass through a body like a needle through fabric. That does not mean being shot is a pain-free experience. But unless the bullet strikes a vital organ or the spine, the adrenaline-fueled enemy may have the strength to keep on fighting and even live to fight another day.

In 2006, the Army asked a private research organization to survey 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nearly one-fifth of those who used the M4 and M16 rifles wanted larger caliber bullets.

Yet the Army is not changing. The answer is better aim, not bigger bullets, officials say.

"If you hit a guy in the right spot, it doesn't matter what you shoot him with," said Maj. Thomas Henthorn, chief of the small arms division at Fort Benning, Ga., home to the Army's infantry school.

At about 33 cents each, bullets do not get a lot of public attention in Washington, where the size of the debate is usually measured by how much a piece of equipment costs. But billions of M855 rounds have been produced, and Congress is preparing to pay for many more. The defense request for the budget year that begins Oct. 1 seeks $88 million for 267 million M855s, each one about the size of a AAA battery.

None of the M855's shortcomings is surprising, said Don Alexander, a retired Army chief warrant officer with combat tours in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia and Somalia.

"The bullet does exactly what it was designed to do. It just doesn't do very well at close ranges against smaller-statured people that are lightly equipped and clothed," says Alexander, who spent most of his 26-year military career with the 5th Special Forces Group.

Paul Howe was part of a U.S. military task force 15 years ago in Mogadishu, Somalia's slum-choked capital, when he saw a Somali fighter hit in the back from about a dozen feet away with an M855 round.

"I saw it poof out the other side through his shirt," says Howe, a retired master sergeant and a former member of the Army's elite Delta Force. "The guy just spun around and looked at where the round came from. He got shot a couple more times, but the first round didn't faze him."

With the M855, troops have to hit their targets with more rounds, said Howe, who owns a combat shooting school in Texas. That can be tough to do under high-stress conditions when one shot is all a soldier might get.

"The bullet is just not big enough," he says. "If I'm going into a room against somebody that's determined to kill me, I want to put him down as fast as possible."

Dr. Martin Fackler, a former combat surgeon and a leading authority on bullet injuries, said the problem is the gun, not the bullet. The M4 rifle has a 14.5 inch barrel - too short to create the velocity needed for an M855 bullet to do maximum damage to the body.

"The faster a bullet hits the tissue, the more it's going to fragment," says Fackler. "Bullets that go faster cause more damage. It's that simple."

Rules of war limit the type of ammunition conventional military units can shoot. The Hague Convention of 1899 bars hollow point bullets that expand in the body and cause injuries that someone is less likely to survive. The United States was not a party to that agreement. Yet, as most countries do, it adheres to the treaty, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

The Hague restrictions do not apply to law enforcement agencies, however. Ballistics expert Gary Roberts said that is an inconsistency that needs to be remedied, particularly at a time when so many other types of destructive ordnance are allowed in combat.

"It is time to update this antiquated idea and allow U.S. military personnel to use the same proven ammunition," Roberts says.

In response to complaints from troops about the M855, the Army's Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey assigned a team of soldiers, scientists, doctors and engineers to examine the round's effectiveness. The team's findings, announced in May 2006, concluded there were no commercially available rounds of similar size better than the M855.

But Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Corps major, said the Army buried the study's most important conclusion: that larger-caliber bullets are more potent.

"It was manipulated," says Milavic, a Vietnam veteran who manages an online military affairs forum called MILINET. "Everybody knows there are bullets out there that are better."

Officials at Picatinny Arsenal declined to be interviewed. In an e-mailed response to questions, they called the M855 "an overall good performer." Studies are being conducted to see if it can be made more lethal without violating the Hague Convention, they said.

Larger rounds are not necessarily better, they also said. Other factors such as the weather, the amount of light and the bullet's angle of entry also figure into how lethal a single shot may be.

Heavier rounds also mean more weight for soldiers to carry, as well as more recoil - the backward kick created when a round is fired. That long has been a serious issue for the military, which has troops of varied size and strength.

The M14 rifle used by Joe Higgins was once destined to be the weapon of choice for all U.S. military personnel. When switched to the automatic fire mode, the M14 could shoot several hundred rounds a minute. But most soldiers could not control the gun, and in the mid-1960s it gave way to the M16 and its smaller cartridge. The few remaining M14s are used by snipers and marksman.

U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., is buying a carbine called the SCAR Heavy for its commandos, and it shoots the same round as the M14. The regular Army, though, has invested heavily in M4 and M16 rifles and has no plans to get rid of them.

A change in expectations is needed more than a change in gear, said Col. Robert Radcliffe, chief of combat developments at Fort Benning. Soldiers go through training believing that simply hitting a part of their target is enough to kill it. On a training range, getting close to the bulls-eye counts. But in actual combat, nicking the edges isn't enough.

"Where you hit is essential to the equation," Radcliffe says. "I think the expectations are a little bit off in terms of combat performance against target range performance. And part of that is our fault for allowing that expectation to grow when it's really not there at all."

The arguments over larger calibers, Radcliffe says, are normal in military circles where emotions over guns and bullets can run high.

"One of the things I've discovered in guns is that damned near everyone is an expert," he says. "And they all have opinions."

---

On
 

thallub

New member
Yep, the same troops who are griping about the M4 will change their tune after 15 hour days of hiking in the heat with an M14 and 350 rounds of 7.62mm ball.
 

TimRB

New member
This is a debate that has been going on since the sixties. I am intrigued by this statement, however:

"In 2006, the Army asked a private research organization to survey 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nearly one-fifth of those who used the M4 and M16 rifles wanted larger caliber bullets."

This is another way of saying "Over 80 percent of those who used the M4 and M16 rifles were satisfied with their ammo."

Tim
 

SPUSCG

New member
i can understand the m16, the muzzle velocity of which gives the bullet enough speed to shatter on impact and kill a terrorist, but the m4 doesnt get the same velocity and is just sending 22 caliber bullets out........why not get m14s standard issue and use squad smgs and shotguns for close quarters like inside a building
 

Sidetracked

New member
This has been beaten to death in many threads. But, I won't stop anyone from arguing their point.

The saying "Velocity Kills" has a lot of merit to it. But... I still believe .22 caliber is too anemic for a general service weapon.

The US Military won't go back to .30 caliber any time soon... so I'll have to settle for 6mm-7mm.

On a side note... I saw an old news program (rerun) a few days ago that talked about the 'deadly' 5.56, and how its '3,000+ MPH bullet' is unparallelled.
3,000mph * 1.4 = 4,200fps
Last time I checked.... the M855 wasn't doing anywhere near 4,200 fps. I wonder if the military is slinging propoganda again, or if the 'researchers' are just morons...
 

Jermtheory

New member
This has been beaten to death in many threads.

only on page one...of more than one of the forums here.

heres my .02(well not mine really) again...

FBI Academy,Firearms Training Unit -With the exceptions of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord,the concept of reliable and reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth...

Physiologically,a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord.Failing a hit to the central nervous system,massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary,and this takes time.For example,there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full,voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.

im personally pretty sick of hearing about all of the instant stops that would be accomplished with a larger round...the facts just dont back it up.
 

dresden8

New member
This is another way of saying "Over 80 percent of those who used the M4 and M16 rifles were satisfied with their ammo."

Lies, damned lies and statistics. Every time I see numbers like that I look to find the catch. The odd thing is there usually is one and the sensationalist aspect of the presentation just ploughs on regardless.
 

rogertc1

Moderator
Hell the Springfield 1903 is more acurate...that is what they need to carry. With shot placement they will same ammo and the environment.

Is kind if a stupid debate with no link to source either.
 

Silvanus

New member
I've said the same thing on THR, over 4/5th of the soldiers like the 5.56. So what is all the fuss about?


Nearly one-fifth of those who used the M4 and M16 rifles wanted larger caliber bullets
 

Musketeer

New member
The M-14 is a great weapon but is not ideal for narrow hallways and room clearing.

I don't see any need to abide by a treaty when fighting a force which is not even a national force. Get bullets that will perform better against unarmored targets and the 5.56 will do just fine.

I believe they were complaining in the Philippines about the performance of the M1 carbine and that they wanted shotguns. Then they were told how many rounds of carbine ammo could be carried in place of a shotgun shell... Same problem here.
 

SPUSCG

New member
id have an m14, regular stock no pistol grip, and just switch to an smg shotgun or pistol for room clearing
 

Musketeer

New member
id have an m14, regular stock no pistol grip, and just switch to an smg shotgun or pistol for room clearing

Yet it is impractical to arm every soldier like a marine from DOOM with half a dozen weapons for every occasion. The M4 seems to fit the bill pretty well with 80% of the troops according to the numbers given. Ammo can be improved but you are not going to see a return to carrying around M14s by all the troops nor have each outfitted with two anti tank rockets, an M-16 with a 203, MP5, Cut down 870, handgun, silencer, 6 frag grenades, 2 smoke grenades, and a chain saw along with 300 rounds for each.
 

Kraziken

New member
It seems a semi-jacket soft point or hollow point would resolve this issue, but that would violate the Hague convention, (which we didn't sign anyway ).
 

alfred

New member
The government hates a good thing!

Many of the WW2 and Korea grunts loved,cheated and even stole the M1 Carbine for this type warfare.Why were they discontinued?alfred
 

Jermtheory

New member
apparently the vast majority of the soldiers dont feel the M4 is "crap".maybe if you go back 40 years the numbers may swing but...thats not really applicable is it?
 

hoytinak

New member
I've carried and used a M4 on four different deployments and didn't think it was "crap" either. I carried and used a M14 on one and after carrying it and 160 rounds up and down the mountains of Afghanistan I gotta say, I really missed my M4 w/210 rounds.
 
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