Mega-thread on William Safires 'Invasion of Privacy' article.
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Justin Moore
New member
Total SATANIC Awareness.
The control grid is going on, my friends...
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/14/o...&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=top
The control grid is going on, my friends...
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/14/o...&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=top
Justin Moore
New member
This is the single scariest thing I have seen in my adult life. Forget about Sarah Brady, forget about Josh Sugarman, forget about it ALL! Forget you ever even lived in a free country, this is the total takeover in one swell foop. Reichsmarshall Poindexter apparently intends to completely shred the Consitution in order to 'keep you safe'. And besides if you 'have nothing to hide' you have nothing to worry about...............
Justin Moore
New member
Here's the article from Reason:
Just A Bit More
TRAFFIC CHECKS: Random stops begin today in Michigan
November 12, 2002
BY TAMARA AUDI
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER
Federal agents will begin randomly stopping traffic today, looking for illegal immigrants, terrorists and drug or weapon smugglers.
Cars will be stopped at unannounced, rotating checkpoints within Michigan, including metro Detroit. U.S. Border Patrol agents at the checkpoints will ask passengers their citizenship and will have leeway to ask a host of follow-up questions.
The effort is part of President George W. Bush's attempt to increase security along the northern border, said Immigration and Naturalization spokeswoman Karen Kraushaar.
According to an obscure but long-standing federal law, the government can conduct searches and surveillance within 25 miles of any international border.
The practice of internal checkpoints is common in Texas and California, states along the southwest border.
Michigan is among the first of the northern border states to be included in the program.
Though agents will focus on finding undocumented immigrants, the checkpoints on the southern border have helped net drugs and weapons, patrol agents and officials said.
"Those checkpoints would yield quite a few arrests," said Robert Lindemann, vice president of Michigan's border patrol union and a patrol agent in Detroit. Lindemann used to work checkpoints near the southern border. "We got drugs, we got aliens, we got convicts. The checkpoints on the southwest border are critical."
In Michigan, federal officials hope the checkpoints will also help them catch terrorists.
"The terrorism component cannot be ignored in addressing border security," Kraushaar said.
Lindemann and other agents said it's too soon to tell how successful the checkpoints will be. One feature that is bound to carry over from the southern border is traffic, they said. Checkpoints cause back-ups.
Federal officials would not say Monday how many checkpoints there will be, or how often Michigan drivers can expect to be stopped. More details on the program are to be released at a news conference in Kimball Township today.
Meanwhile, civil liberty groups raised concerns.
"We believe it's going to be very hard for them to do this without violating people's civil rights, or profiling people based on their ethnicity or accent," said Kary Moss, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Michigan.
U.S. citizens are not required to carry proof of identification with them while traveling in the country. Alien residents are required to carry some paperwork.
Contact TAMARA AUDI at 313-222-6582 or audi@freepress.com.
TRAFFIC CHECKS: Random stops begin today in Michigan
November 12, 2002
BY TAMARA AUDI
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER
Federal agents will begin randomly stopping traffic today, looking for illegal immigrants, terrorists and drug or weapon smugglers.
Cars will be stopped at unannounced, rotating checkpoints within Michigan, including metro Detroit. U.S. Border Patrol agents at the checkpoints will ask passengers their citizenship and will have leeway to ask a host of follow-up questions.
The effort is part of President George W. Bush's attempt to increase security along the northern border, said Immigration and Naturalization spokeswoman Karen Kraushaar.
According to an obscure but long-standing federal law, the government can conduct searches and surveillance within 25 miles of any international border.
The practice of internal checkpoints is common in Texas and California, states along the southwest border.
Michigan is among the first of the northern border states to be included in the program.
Though agents will focus on finding undocumented immigrants, the checkpoints on the southern border have helped net drugs and weapons, patrol agents and officials said.
"Those checkpoints would yield quite a few arrests," said Robert Lindemann, vice president of Michigan's border patrol union and a patrol agent in Detroit. Lindemann used to work checkpoints near the southern border. "We got drugs, we got aliens, we got convicts. The checkpoints on the southwest border are critical."
In Michigan, federal officials hope the checkpoints will also help them catch terrorists.
"The terrorism component cannot be ignored in addressing border security," Kraushaar said.
Lindemann and other agents said it's too soon to tell how successful the checkpoints will be. One feature that is bound to carry over from the southern border is traffic, they said. Checkpoints cause back-ups.
Federal officials would not say Monday how many checkpoints there will be, or how often Michigan drivers can expect to be stopped. More details on the program are to be released at a news conference in Kimball Township today.
Meanwhile, civil liberty groups raised concerns.
"We believe it's going to be very hard for them to do this without violating people's civil rights, or profiling people based on their ethnicity or accent," said Kary Moss, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Michigan.
U.S. citizens are not required to carry proof of identification with them while traveling in the country. Alien residents are required to carry some paperwork.
Contact TAMARA AUDI at 313-222-6582 or audi@freepress.com.
Master Blaster
New member
Convicted Felon Poindexter to lead Penatgon Spy effort on Law abiding US Citizens
Language tucked inside the Homeland Security bill will allow the federal government to track the e-mail, Internet use, travel, credit-card purchases, phone and bank records of foreigners and U.S. citizens in its hunt for terrorists. Top Stories
• Pelosi to lead House Democrats
• Baghdad increases range of surface-to-air missiles
• Bush plan gives firms chance at federal jobs
• Virginia executes Pakistani killer
• D.C. libraries tattered, torn
• To fire up players, some coaches just say cheese
In what one critic has called "a supersnoop's dream," the Defense Department's Total Information Awareness program would be authorized to collect every type of available public and private data in what the Pentagon describes as one "centralized grand database."
Computers and analysts are supposed to use all this available information to determine patterns of people's behavior in order to detect and identify terrorists, decipher plans and enable the United States to pre-empt terrorist acts.
The project first appeared in the Senate Democratic proposal for the new Homeland Security Department, which was defeated Wednesday in a 50-47 vote. However it was included in the Republican-brokered agreement that passed the House later that night in a 299-121 vote and is on the fast track to pass the Senate by next week.
The computer-generated project of raw data will "help identify promising technologies and quickly get them into the hands of people who need them," according to a congressional leadership memo outlining the legislation.
In a blistering op-ed piece in yesterday's New York Times titled "You Are A Suspect," columnist William Safire compared the database to George Orwell's Big Brother government in the novel "1984."
"To this computerized dossier on your private life from commercial sources, add every piece of information that government has about you — passport application, driver's license and bridge toll records, judicial and divorce records, complaints from nosy neighbors to the FBI, your lifetime paper trail plus the latest hidden camera surveillance — and you have the supersnoop's dream: a 'Total Information Awareness' about every U.S. citizen," Mr. Safire wrote.
"There is a great danger in this provision. It gives carte blanche to eavesdrop on Americans on the flimsiest of evidence, if any evidence at all," said Phil Kent, president of the Southeastern Legal Foundation.
Mr. Kent called the provision "an unprecedented electronic dragnet."
"I think it's the most sweeping threat to civil liberties since Japanese-American internment," Mr. Kent said.
Mr. Kent and outgoing Rep. Bob Barr, Georgia Republican, are lobbying the Senate to remove this and other provisions they say are a threat to civil liberties and restrict the public's right to know of government activities.
"In defense of members of Congress, many don't read the whole legislation and very few people read the fine print," said Mr. Barr. "You would think the Pentagon planning a system to peek at personal data would get a little more attention.
"It's outrageous, it really is outrageous," Mr. Barr said.
The bill establishes the Total Information Awareness program within a new agency — the Security Advanced Research Projects Agency (SARPA), which would be modeled on the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), the central research office for the Defense Department that pursues research and technology, and led to the creation of the Internet. DARPA and SARPA both would be under the supervision of Adm. John Poindexter.
Neither Adm. Poindexter nor a spokesman at his current agency, DARPA, could be reached for comment. The phone number listed for Adm. Poindexter in the government directory reaches a recording that says incoming calls are not accepted. A recording reached in the media relations office states that Adm. Poindexter is "not accepting any interview requests at this time."
Adm. Poindexter first hit the public eye as national security adviser for President Reagan during the Iran-Contra scandal. He was convicted in 1990 on five felonies including lying to Congress and destroying evidence.
At a DARPA conference in Anaheim, Calif., Adm. Poindexter made his first public appearance since taking the post in February.
"During the years I was in the White House, it was relatively simple to identify our intelligence collection targets," Adm. Poindexter was quoted as saying in Government Executive magazine.
However, the United States now faces "asymmetrical" threats that are loosely organized and difficult to find, and require new, technology-driven defenses, he said. The goal of his new office is to consider every source of information available worldwide to uncover terrorists, the magazine said.
Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, said the computer system would capture the data and analyze it to find patterns that match terrorist activity.
Authorizing the project would require amending the Privacy Act of 1974. The language contained in the homeland security bill does not address the act directly, but authorizes the creation of the agency.
Mr. Rotenberg said the database takes a convergence of various factors to a system of public surveillance.
"They think the technology is about catching terrorists and bad guys, but these systems can capture a lot of data at different levels without oversight, judicial review, public reporting or congressional investigations. I can't think of a good countermeasure that would be good to safeguard civil liberties in the United States," Mr. Rotenberg said.
Language tucked inside the Homeland Security bill will allow the federal government to track the e-mail, Internet use, travel, credit-card purchases, phone and bank records of foreigners and U.S. citizens in its hunt for terrorists. Top Stories
• Pelosi to lead House Democrats
• Baghdad increases range of surface-to-air missiles
• Bush plan gives firms chance at federal jobs
• Virginia executes Pakistani killer
• D.C. libraries tattered, torn
• To fire up players, some coaches just say cheese
In what one critic has called "a supersnoop's dream," the Defense Department's Total Information Awareness program would be authorized to collect every type of available public and private data in what the Pentagon describes as one "centralized grand database."
Computers and analysts are supposed to use all this available information to determine patterns of people's behavior in order to detect and identify terrorists, decipher plans and enable the United States to pre-empt terrorist acts.
The project first appeared in the Senate Democratic proposal for the new Homeland Security Department, which was defeated Wednesday in a 50-47 vote. However it was included in the Republican-brokered agreement that passed the House later that night in a 299-121 vote and is on the fast track to pass the Senate by next week.
The computer-generated project of raw data will "help identify promising technologies and quickly get them into the hands of people who need them," according to a congressional leadership memo outlining the legislation.
In a blistering op-ed piece in yesterday's New York Times titled "You Are A Suspect," columnist William Safire compared the database to George Orwell's Big Brother government in the novel "1984."
"To this computerized dossier on your private life from commercial sources, add every piece of information that government has about you — passport application, driver's license and bridge toll records, judicial and divorce records, complaints from nosy neighbors to the FBI, your lifetime paper trail plus the latest hidden camera surveillance — and you have the supersnoop's dream: a 'Total Information Awareness' about every U.S. citizen," Mr. Safire wrote.
"There is a great danger in this provision. It gives carte blanche to eavesdrop on Americans on the flimsiest of evidence, if any evidence at all," said Phil Kent, president of the Southeastern Legal Foundation.
Mr. Kent called the provision "an unprecedented electronic dragnet."
"I think it's the most sweeping threat to civil liberties since Japanese-American internment," Mr. Kent said.
Mr. Kent and outgoing Rep. Bob Barr, Georgia Republican, are lobbying the Senate to remove this and other provisions they say are a threat to civil liberties and restrict the public's right to know of government activities.
"In defense of members of Congress, many don't read the whole legislation and very few people read the fine print," said Mr. Barr. "You would think the Pentagon planning a system to peek at personal data would get a little more attention.
"It's outrageous, it really is outrageous," Mr. Barr said.
The bill establishes the Total Information Awareness program within a new agency — the Security Advanced Research Projects Agency (SARPA), which would be modeled on the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), the central research office for the Defense Department that pursues research and technology, and led to the creation of the Internet. DARPA and SARPA both would be under the supervision of Adm. John Poindexter.
Neither Adm. Poindexter nor a spokesman at his current agency, DARPA, could be reached for comment. The phone number listed for Adm. Poindexter in the government directory reaches a recording that says incoming calls are not accepted. A recording reached in the media relations office states that Adm. Poindexter is "not accepting any interview requests at this time."
Adm. Poindexter first hit the public eye as national security adviser for President Reagan during the Iran-Contra scandal. He was convicted in 1990 on five felonies including lying to Congress and destroying evidence.
At a DARPA conference in Anaheim, Calif., Adm. Poindexter made his first public appearance since taking the post in February.
"During the years I was in the White House, it was relatively simple to identify our intelligence collection targets," Adm. Poindexter was quoted as saying in Government Executive magazine.
However, the United States now faces "asymmetrical" threats that are loosely organized and difficult to find, and require new, technology-driven defenses, he said. The goal of his new office is to consider every source of information available worldwide to uncover terrorists, the magazine said.
Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, said the computer system would capture the data and analyze it to find patterns that match terrorist activity.
Authorizing the project would require amending the Privacy Act of 1974. The language contained in the homeland security bill does not address the act directly, but authorizes the creation of the agency.
Mr. Rotenberg said the database takes a convergence of various factors to a system of public surveillance.
"They think the technology is about catching terrorists and bad guys, but these systems can capture a lot of data at different levels without oversight, judicial review, public reporting or congressional investigations. I can't think of a good countermeasure that would be good to safeguard civil liberties in the United States," Mr. Rotenberg said.
Scott Conklin
New member
Remember: The GOP is your friend.
No, merely far less of an enemy than the only alternative.
No, merely far less of an enemy than the only alternative.
I have to laugh every time I read a thread from someone concerned about "privacy". You might as well have a thread about unicorns and other mythical beasts. Privacy has been extinct for at least four decades that I know of.
I used to be in the Army Security Agency -- the Army's version of the NSA. Does anyone remember the Pueblo incident where a spy ship was captured off of North Korea (1968)? Any idea what they were doing there? They were listening to ordinary phone conversations being carried over wires several miles inland -- and they were doing it from international waters.
Of course, the technology for eavesdropping has improved considerably since then. For about one thousand bucks, I can buy a piece of equipment that will allow me to listen to every conversation inside your home, regardless of whether such conversation takes place on a telephone -- and there would be no way you could know I was listening.
While I was in the ASA, I was on burn detail a number of times - burning classified materials. One of the things I burned was a book the size of a phone book that contained dossiers on thousands of US citizens, most of whom seemed to be included for no reason other than the fact that they opposed the Vietnam War. Of course, the military isn't supposed to compile any such info, but they did. Would it ever come to light if they did? Not likely. Anyone who presented such a document to the media would be prosecuted for spying -- regardless of whether the book itself was legal.
In short, if the government (or anyone else) wants to know anything at all about you, they can do it, and without much trouble. The only real reason that you have any "privacy" left at all is that you are probably just too boring to be of much interest to anyone.
I used to be in the Army Security Agency -- the Army's version of the NSA. Does anyone remember the Pueblo incident where a spy ship was captured off of North Korea (1968)? Any idea what they were doing there? They were listening to ordinary phone conversations being carried over wires several miles inland -- and they were doing it from international waters.
Of course, the technology for eavesdropping has improved considerably since then. For about one thousand bucks, I can buy a piece of equipment that will allow me to listen to every conversation inside your home, regardless of whether such conversation takes place on a telephone -- and there would be no way you could know I was listening.
While I was in the ASA, I was on burn detail a number of times - burning classified materials. One of the things I burned was a book the size of a phone book that contained dossiers on thousands of US citizens, most of whom seemed to be included for no reason other than the fact that they opposed the Vietnam War. Of course, the military isn't supposed to compile any such info, but they did. Would it ever come to light if they did? Not likely. Anyone who presented such a document to the media would be prosecuted for spying -- regardless of whether the book itself was legal.
In short, if the government (or anyone else) wants to know anything at all about you, they can do it, and without much trouble. The only real reason that you have any "privacy" left at all is that you are probably just too boring to be of much interest to anyone.
This is the Safire op-ed referenced in the article above:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/14/opinion/14SAFI.html
You Are a Suspect
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/14/opinion/14SAFI.html
You Are a Suspect
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
Wolfman97:
You might be all too correct in what you say. Speaking personally, I've been long established, since 1955, in file cabinets somewhere, as a result of having had a Q clearance issued in that year. Oh my, how the time goes by.
In the last analysis, perhaps the old saying about what you don't know about, won't disturb you. It might well be that what is really irksome is the fact of how blatant the sob's have become.
You might be all too correct in what you say. Speaking personally, I've been long established, since 1955, in file cabinets somewhere, as a result of having had a Q clearance issued in that year. Oh my, how the time goes by.
In the last analysis, perhaps the old saying about what you don't know about, won't disturb you. It might well be that what is really irksome is the fact of how blatant the sob's have become.
Justin Moore
New member
That's really it in a nutshell right there. As wolfman pointed out this type of stuff has been going on for YEARS.
Now they are just ANNOUNCING it, so they can USE this material. That's the troubling part.
Justin Moore
New member
...and the lesser of two evils is STILL evil my friend......