Martial arts and kicks above the waist question

[Skorzeny]

Spartacus:

1. Yes, I use the term martial art and unarmed combat system interchangeably. I recognize that many Nihon Jujutsu techniques were actually derived from sword techniques (which explains why there are so many defenses against Shomen-uchi in Aikido and Aiki-Jujutsu), but for convenience, I use the term martial arts to refer to a group of unarmed self-defense techniques.

2. I would bet my money on the "halfass stick fighter" or Kali fighter with the knife too. However, I would also bet my money on a half-ass gunman or shotgunner, too. What is your point? My point is that I consider "martial arts" to be the last ditch defense system when I cannot run away, cannot avoid the fight and am without a weapon (a blade, a gun, a stick, a cannon, a fighter-bomber, etc. etc.) or cannot bring a weapon into play.

In such a case, I think that my case for BJJ or Sambo is pretty strong.

By the way, have you ever seen the Dog Brothers? They started out as stickfighters and ended up adding many grappling techniques (courtesy of Machado brothers, who are cousins to the Gracies) when they discovered that many of the stickfights when to the ground. So, they teach a unique brand of stickfighting combined with BJJ.

Try to catch one of their videos if you can. They're wild!

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

 

[Cheapo]

For some reason, all this reminds me of the old Monty Python skit with the British officer training the troops in how to handle a man armed with a banana.

Full Brit accent on:
"What if he comes at you with a POINTED STICK?"

oh, nevermind...

 

[Jack 99]

Cheapo - LOL!!!!!!!!!

Too funny. That's got to be one of the funniest Monty Python routines ever. Very appropriate.

I really didn't mean to start all of this. For what its worth, I'm going to meet Roy Harris on Thursday for my "free introductory lesson." I talked to him on the phone and he seems like a good guy without too much attitude. I asked him how effective he thinks his training is "on the street" and his response was that there is no such thing as an ultimate system, in his experience. He did say if I trained with him seriously for a year, I could pretty much count on being able to at least inflict enough damage in an unarmed street fight to be able to get the hell out of the situation against at least 99% of the population.

Seems like a pretty sound philosophy, I'm in my 30s and my days of having to prove anything to anybody are pretty far behind me. If my response to a threat is to kick some guy in the groin, knee, whatever, and run like hell, I'm not going to lose any sleep or feel any less manly.

I'll let everyone here know how it goes.

 

[David Wright]

Spartacus, I try to teach them, but they just chew the covers off the books....Real life elludes(sp?) some folks.
Know what I mean?

Skor, shame on you. The following is definitely not a flame, not even a flicker, but maybe together we can bring you down out of orbit and back to earth safely.

How can you be fully up-to-speed on SCARS in a couple of weeks when you knew little or nothing (by your own admission, If I am correct) about the details several weeks ago. That's an incredible talent! Folks should be considered top level experts when they can evaluate accurately any system that quickly! What would Humphries say about your expertese? (experTEASE perhaps)

Careful, people are watching. The two or three BJJ folks(not novices) that were in my SCARS class didn't share you or your friend's opinion. Maybe they just don't get it.

I have received some private e-mails requesting more info since I posted regarding SCARS. Five of them voiced concerns that they didn't directly post here at TFL due to possible verbal confrontation by some "gurus". They wanted to ask someone who has some "experience". Uh, ahem, yes indeedy.

Your verbage seems to indicate a personal vendetta against Jerry and his system, your post is subjective(!) and no amount of disclaimers or diplomatic verbage (nothing personal against SCARS, but...) will hide that fact. As your post goes on, it gets more and more emotional and personal. It is clear to anyone who reads it. So be it. If that is the picture you want to present of yourself, that's your business.

If you don't like SCARS, just say so, and move on with your life. But to spend so much time here regurgitating your distaste for Jerry speaks volumes. Nobody beats a dead horse, but you seem to want to. Curious.

I find part of your post very offensive. I'm not trying to blow you out of the water, but please read the following carefully. If this post is getting you angry, then get over it. Don't zip through it. You need to realize what you are implying about some of us out here. I believe an apology or at least a clarification might be in order.

I'm no novice (or a *DFV like some), and I'm not a sucker either. And the others I have PERSONALLY seen at SCARS and worked with including HRT, LEO's, LAPD and others that I cannot name and YOU PROBABLY DON'T BEGIN TO HAVE THE CLEARANCE AND/OR REFERENCES TO HEAR ABOUT LET ALONE TO ASSOCIATE/WORK WITH, would probably love to have you explain how they are novices and suckers. I would pay $$ to see you stand before them and state your case. That would be, uh, ah, educational, would it not? The folks that I am very fortunate to associate with are out there frequently doing things that almost all dojo owners and dojo groupies dream (or dread) about getting into. I can tell who hasn't. Period. Full stop. End of story. (for you Marcinko fans

If you are trying to win the hearts and minds of people over to your personal choice, you aren't going to get very far at all with subjective attacks. It never worked for me in my younger years.

Nothing personal, but, regarding SCARS, you don't have any idea what you are talking about, and it's obvious. Here's how we all can tell. When studied carefully, your post contains lots of unsupported personal opinion and hearsay, and no real, accurate,definitive details about the system. Ah, the devil is, indeed, in the details. If you really studied it in detail, then you could make an INFORMED opinion of what you felt were weaknesses or problems and specifically convey that to us OBJECTIVELY without all of the other subjective personal NONSENSE. Right? Right.

I'm not mad at all, but, Skor, really, you make me laugh...HARD.... You have a lot to contribute to this site, but cool it by pulling back on the emotion a bit. You'll get a better audience that way. I still struggle with it. I've been "reigned in" more than once here, but haven't gotten booted yet.

Relax, take your blood pressure medication and take it easy. You don't have to post a reply to me, but think about what I said for awhile. Calmly.
My offer's still good for Thai....

*DFV= Deadly Force Virgin

[This message has been edited by David Wright (edited September 20, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by David Wright (edited September 20, 1999).]

 

[Skorzeny]

Jack 99:

Good for you! I have absolutely nothing to do with Roy Harris, but I have heard from many trusted sources that he is an excellent instructor and a good integrator of several systems (mainly JKD and BJJ).

When you get a chance, why don't you ask him what he thinks about Jerry "The Most Dangerous Man Alive" Petersen and his SCARS. I really am curious about what he would say.

Mr. Wright:

I don't have to buy a computer and do extended business with "34th Street Camera/Computers" to know that it's tourist trap and a fraud. I check some references and reviews of stores and I can find out quickly.

Likewise, I did an extensive search on SCARS and talked to a number of people for the past two weeks or so and came to the conclusion.

I think that even Spartacus agrees that BJJ is extremely effective in at least one-on-one, unarmed fight. I don't recall Spartacus saying something of the sort about SCARS.

As I wrote before, if it works for you, that's fantastic and I urge you to cotinue to train in whatever system that works for you. I am merely stating that after an exhaustive research (I am BTW now trying to borrow one of Petersen's tapes), I've come to my own personal conclusions about SCARS and Petersen. That's all. Please do not interpret this as a personal attack on you (though I am still a little miffed about this "I can get out of any Gracie lock or hold" claim, which sounds very Jerry Petersen-like).

Cheers to you all,

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

 

[Mike Spight]

David:

Sorry, you might have missed my question from a few days ago. The SCARS seems interesting...I visited the website and think I understand this much...it's a self-study program (you purchase videos and train with someone at home) and there are opportunities to receive one-on-one instruction at various seminars around the country on a fee basis.

Is that it? Is Jerry's Phoenix location the only place where SCARS is taught on a regular basis?

Thanks...
Mike

 

[David Wright]

Skor, no harm, no foul.

The Thai offer is legit.

If it makes any difference, I don't like the marketing either. These guys are so far away from what might be assumed from the ads, that it is like night and day. The comment I made was based in part from the other students that are well versed in BJJ. Also,the SCARS people really did go down there to study with the Gracies for awhile, but so many restrictions were put on them as to what the SCARS folks could and couldn't do against the Gracies, that most anything done would have been an unrealistic sport match. The students I worked with couldn't fully utilize what they learned from the Gracies because of the counters involved. They would want to demonstrate a particular hold, but never got the opportunity to get that far. They would want to start closer to a finishing hold, but when we ran it in real time, they never got far enough to do the finishing hold(s). Does this explaination make sense?
We have to get in a position to apply certain holds and moves in the first place. If someone uses any system that effectively won't let you get that far, then we never have a chance to use them.

Let me give a silly yet accurate example.
Let's say someone attacks me and uses the old trick of diving low at me to tackle me on the ground. I can tuck and tumble with them and throw them off(if they're inexperienced), or (and this is virtually impossible for me to describe in writing) I can go to a low position and trap them with my forearms as they dive. Even if they have grabbed me, from this position, I can choke them out, or I can crush their adam's apple, among other choices. I just like how this system can get someone to an efective level quickly. There are no shortcuts to a real skill, but we can be efficient with our moves. BJJ is very effective, but there are other options. There are a lot of good people out there that due to back injuries or other considerations, can't ever get close to your skill level. I think (and my back thinks) that SCARS makes less physical demands. Maybe I should ask Jerry to put up ads in the old folks homes.

Even as Jerry said many times, someone operating at a high skill level in different martial arts besides SCARS can be very dangerous and effective indeed. He's not like the ads at all.

Mike, sorry for the late post. I'm away from the PC a lot nowadays and rarely get to visit TFL anymore. Besides going to Phoenix, you can look-up training partners in your area on the SCARS page. The funny thing about this system is how far you can go with just the videos. I studied and practiced for about two years with the videos, and was apprehensive about attending the class without live partner training. Everything worked out fine at the class. I know this is contrary to everything I have seen before, but it works.

I will say this, everything they did, from pick-up and drop-off at airport, to getting fed breakfast, lunch and dinner (well!) to the facilities, overall organization, clarity of what was going on, professionalism and lack of arrogance or ego was extremely impressive. These guys really are top notch.

Get the videos, if they don't work, get your money back.

What is not on the videos but you may see at class, is when a lot of people pin Jerry or the instructors against a wall, and they get away every time. What do you say to someone that can get away from a bunch of people pinning them to a wall or floor over and over, even against skilled people. They simply know something most people don't. And, more importantly, they can teach others QUICKLY to be effective. If you can handle
a small crowd, you can probably handle getting loose from 1,2,3,4 people, right?

To see it happening is enlightening. No magic, just science as explained, and you can do it too. But still, it makes you wonder how they came up with some of this stuff.

Good Luck

 

[Mike Spight]

David:

Thanks for the info...I appreciate it!

Mike

 

[Byron Quick]

Skorzeny,

I had never even heard of SCARS before this thread much less seen it. Of course I didn't comment on its effectiveness either pro or con.

------------------
Byron Quick

 

[Skorzeny]

Mr. Wright:

This is getting somewhat tiresome for me. I am sure it is becoming so for you, too. However, I'll bite and break down my responses as follows:

1. "Jerry is different in real life" or "Jerry is not like in the ads."

While some may think that we ought to judge a person based on how he behaves in person, I tend to think that we should also judge a man based on what he writes, what he says and how he conducts himself in private as well as in public. In his ads, he makes outrageous and untrue claims and conducts himself like a third-rate Ninja-wanna-be fraud. So, this "he's weird in the ads, but he is really nice if you get to know him" bit doesn't really fly for me.

2. "Jerry's Counters to BJJ doesn't allow BJJ techniques to work"

I don't know how skilled those BJJ practitioners you had in your class are, but at least one BJJ blue belt showed up at Jerry's seminar and schooled pretty much all the participants during free-sparring session where one could do unpredictable things (rather than "if I do this, then you do this" training routine).

For example, what kind of idiotic BJJ fighter would just dive in for double-leg takedown? Even a "half-ass" BJJ fighter would use some punches and kicks to make the opponent back away and then try a takedown when the opponent expects another kick or punch rather than a takedown (this is really basic BJJ, by the way). Or the BJJ fighter may wait until his opponent kicks or punches first and then do a takedown. So, if you wait with your weight forward to counter the double-leg, you are going to get kicked (probably in the knee) or jabbed in the face, rather than get a takedown. After that happens, how much you wanna bet that you'll step back the next time you see that hand or foot coming? That's when a BJJ fighter will do a takedown - when you are backing away in anticipation of the punch or kick.

This demonstrates the problem in training statically with un-dynamic, pre-programmed partner. Look, I can do all kinds of Aikido moves, so long as I know what my opponent is going to do. But I have trouble making Aikido techniques work against someone who moves unpredictably as any real opponent would. But in BJJ, we train by free-sparring in which my partner may do a double-leg, a single-leg, just a clinch or may just slap me if it looks like I am ready to counter a takedown. It is dynamic and unpredictable and our techniques reflect this.

3. "Easy Counter to Double-Leg"

From your description, as a counter to the double-leg, you seem to be doing a sprawl and/or then doing a guillotine choke. Guess what? These are pretty basic "chump" counters to the wrestling double-leg that every BJJ blue belt knows. And guess what else? I know at least three counters for each (sprawl and guillotine) from BJJ. By the way, if you want to do the guillotine correctly, you should trap one of your opponent's arms (the one closest to your body) under your armpit. That makes counters to the guillotine a bit harder to pull off.

As I said before (and as someone else here said, too) BJJ is constantly evolving. BJJ techniques from ten years ago is old, old, old. Heck, many top-level BJJ competitors consider last years techniques to be obsolete. Constant NHB and sports competitions have refined old techniques that work and created new techniques and counters that actually work in dynamic, unpredictable environments.

I might add that this is why Kodokan Judo became so popular in Japan originally (at the turn of the century) - because it cleaned house with other classical Jiu-Jitsu fighters. The latter would train statically (you do this, I do this), because their techniques were unsafe to practice dynamically.

Kano Jigoro removed many unsafe techniques and and then made his fighters train constantly in free-sparring sessions, thus simplifying and concentrating on techniques that worked in actual, fight-like conditions. So, when the time came for Kano's fighters to fight in very realistic contests with other classical Jujutsu fighters, they became undefeated.

Then they came upon a Ryu of Jujutsu that practiced grappling and were defeated handily. Guess what Kodokan did? It added grappling techniques to its curriculum in the form of Ne-Waza (ground techniques). Since then Kodokan Judo reigned supreme in Japan until it turned into an Olympic sport, rather than a combative art.

But that's another story.

4. "SCARS is less physically demanding"

That may very well be true. But, I find that BJJ is not physically demanding at all, because it utilizes leverage and technique, rather than strength and speed.

My wife (all of 5'4" and 110lbs. that she is) has been training in BJJ/Vale Tudo for about one year and can out fight a Tae Kwon Do competitor (over five years of training) of 6' and 180lbs. E-A-S-Y!

It has been my experience that striking arts generally require much more physical conditioning than grappling arts like Aikido, Judo, Sambo or BJJ.

By the way, I meant to ask earlier, but what kind of martial arts training did you have before SCARS?

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu



[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 21, 1999).]

 

[allanh]

I have to ask a question here. I do not mean to offend anyone, but you all keep talking about fights against multiple attackers. I'm 36 and lived a fairly rough life, I have only ever been in one fight against multiple attackers. You all are traing for a circumstance that if it is a real threat in your life, maybe you should change your life style. I recently started training in Hapkido, and feel that in 99% of most situations I was ever in, it would have worked well. If some one knows more than you, it does not matter the art or the style, you are going to be hurting when it's all over.

Again no offense is meant by this.

 

[Spectre]

I have stated for years that I would prefer to bring their head to my foot than vise-versa. I think most high kicks should not be attempted. I also think that kicking range is a lot closer than many believe. I think folks who kick in fights often take a beating. That said, there can be a place for it, and I know several folks who could use their feet on your face with impunity- but I do not think they would open a fight in this manner.

Though I thought it kinda off-topic, I distrust hyperbole. There really are better arts, but there is no substitute for dirt time and hard work. (Read this suchly: SCARS and SAFTA will never get my money.) I have seen the critiques of several bugeisha I respect regarding SCARS. They found it laughable- not useless, perhaps, but there were no "secrets". From what was said, it was information that any decent ninpo taijutsu practitioner knows- basic. FWIW, it's ridiculous to expect everyone to react identically to stimuli. I know people who would give no immediate reaction to breakage of most of the smaller bones

I train, among other reasons, to handle difficult and dangerous situations. It only makes sense to train to handle really bad situations. Keeping one's feet seems like common sense; how else can I run? It seems to make sense to know how to use the ground, but foolish to prefer it. In self-defense, distance is our friend. Keep as much of it as possible between you and the threat.

Spartacus is a good friend, and not, perhaps, intrinsically dangerous to associate with.

[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited September 25, 1999).]

 

[Chuck Ames]

Well,

There are obviously some strong opinions out there, so I'll just add my two cents worth.

Not that I'm the most experienced guy around, but I think we often forget that a fight is a dirty nasty affair with biting, gouging, knees, and elbows. People often tout the supreriority of their "system", but in the end all we end up with is hype.

2nd Ranger Battalion at Fort Lewis, WA contracted Royce Gracie and his brother in 1996 to do a two week hand to hand course. Why? Because it's the best fighting system or because somebody was watching the UFC? For months after that, we saw the Rangers always practising the "mount" and other ground fighting techniques. Think about it. If someone in a CQB environment is on the ground something has gone horribly wrong, and while it may be necessary to train for that, you hopefully have backup during a 4-man room entry. Because the Gracie's won the UFC everybody focuses on ground fighting. One of the other contributors mentioned that BJJ has hand to hand techniques to use before taking someone down, but if I can beat you there, the rest doesn't matter. My opinion is that whatever system is used, it should be hard, fast, and violent, easily learned and easily remembered. My criticism of the universal acceptance of the UFC as the "fighting lab" is that all the best moves are rightly forbidden. By that I mean Eyes, throat, knees, etc. As private citizens our right to self defense ends when the subject is disabled. In other words, if I apply a wonderful choke hold, and in the altercation crush his windpipe or otherwise permanently injure or kill him, I'm open to a lawsuit at best and manslaughter charges at worst. Why, because by the time I got the choke hold on, he is probably subdued.

I understand that a throat strike is potentially lethal, but if it is employed during the fight, not at the end of the fight, it is more justifiable. Hopefully, if any of us is fighting it's because we fear death or serious bodily injury, and not because:
a. Someone offended us
or
b. we've got something to prove.
There is no telling what the body is capable of. On the one hand it can take an enormous amount of punishment, and on the other, it's terribly fragile. So if you decide to mix it up, it damn well better be worth it, and that means anything goes.

Simple, direct, and violent.
With power comes responsibility.

Chuck