Bobk:
I have registered on stoppingpower, and, I asked what the effects of a 45 caliber, 230 grain HP, at 1800 fps would be as a self-defense round? Or, a 200 grain bullet, like the speer flying ashtray? I have, for a very long time, loaded such ammunition, and used it in my 45 Linebaugh/Seville, made in about 1982. I am a long time shooter of big bore handguns, and, I intended no disrespect. Also asked if the 45 ACP was such a good stopper, at least observed by our military, at 800 fps, what would that same bullet do at 1800 fps? Questions never answered, and, I was quickly banned from the site.
My Linebaugh was often loaded with a full case of H110, and, a super hard cast 230 grain cast bullet. Those were the specs, and, I was asking what the results had been on gello, etc?
The issue of hydrodynamic shock does come close to coming into play, on medium to large humans, with such velocities out of a handgun.
I've looked high and low for 44 magnum, or heavy 45 shootings, and, I could only find one, with a glasser safety slug, that worked very well on it's target. I also have another person that has extensive knowledge of nearly 100 police shootings, using the 45LC, and, their results have been excellent, using 200-225 grain Winchester Silvertips.
I also had discussions with the folks at Detonics, and, many police officers, using their guns, had had excellent results using the Speer flying ashtrays, 200 grains, at 1200 fps, and, they had the pictures to prove it.
Hawk bullets also has said that their fairly heavy thin jacketed, soft lead core bullets at 1200 fps, or more, have worked very effectively on game.
I also converse with Lee Jurras, the originator of the fast light HP, owner/originator of Hi-Vel, and, a Hall of Fame member. Mr. Jurras, needless to say, has access to a ton of feedback from actual shootings, using his Hi-Vel 357 ammunition. Yes, it works, but, Mr. Jurras is under no delusion that the light fast is the only solution for Self-Defense, and, his current favorite gun is a .475 Linebaugh. I might also add, that given a choice, in his younger years, he shot light and fast, but, in a 44 magnum, with bullets designed not to expand, or, depending upon target, to expand. In other words, use the proper hammer for the nail you are trying to hit.
For those of us used to shooting big bore guns, keeping a 45 Super, or 10mm on target is really easy. At defense ranges, a piece of cake. Just because the majority of folks can't shoot these guns accurately, and departments for political reasons, choose to go with lesser calibers, does not diminish the effectiveness of such calibers.
IIRC, Mr. Fackler once stated that the actual number of shootings in the United States was much smaller then the 'statistics' indicated, since nearly half were suicide. Most of the rest gang bangers, and, very few otherwise. So, you have a very small statistical sampling, and, of those relatively few shootings, nearly all are police. Therefore the relevant data is going to be on police calibers, and, that means the data compiled on police shootings might have some value.
The guys that designed the .357, Keith and Jordan, IIRC, were so happy with it they wanted everyone to move to the .41 Magnum, to try and correct the short comings of the .357. Sadly, S&W never chambered light, easy to shoot revolvers in that caliber, nor did Colt, killing the caliber, effectively.
Trying to find the best loading, inside the box, is not of much value, and, M&S seemed to be doing that, or, shilling for their friends/sponsors.
I'm not going to waste the time trying to determine what the motivation is, and, M&S data is pretty much out of date, making the entire issue a moot point.
The industry now has options, calibers, and firearms today that allow us to put to rest the entire discussion, provided you can shoot them.
Dr. S
Yes, I have a doctrate degree as well...
PPS
Dr. Courtney: Pleasure having you post here, and, I've enjoyed your writing. Keep up the good work...
