Managed Recoil ammo for elk?

[langenc]

Suggestions-

#1 Dont wait on other kids till they are 12 or 13. Get going at 9 or 10.

#2 Dont use a bunch of 'padding'.

#3 Do make sure the gun is not to long. Adult guns will be unless cut down.
To long and it ends up snagging jacket and on the biceps and that will give FLINCH quickly. Get the butt in the natural pocket in the shoulder.

#4 Go to Hodgdon.com-on the top bar hit 'data' and the 'youth loads'.
Didnt mention if you loaded. Get a 30-06 or 308 and load about 75% w/ H 4895 (as directed in Hodgdon.com), using Core lockt 150 gr bullets and you will kill and any elk hit in the chest area.

#5 Let him shoot w/ gun/load till he is comfortable and keep shots under 125 or whatever he can consistantly hit. Shoot from 'hunting' positions not bench. Get him a bipod of some sort. Confidence with lighter gun is better than magnum and no practice.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I have used the 300 Win Mag Rem Managed Recoil on whitetails. I'm not sure exactly how close they are to the 30-06 Managed Recoil, but they worked well.
I have seen two rag horns killed with the 270 Win and 130 grain core locts. The bullets stopped in the skin on the far side, but the bulls didn't go anywhere.

Personally, I like something bigger. But, 125 grains at 2500 FPS on the broadside of a cow elk ain't going to bounce off.

We usually kill them with arrows.


I just looked at Remington's website. The velocity of the 30/06 and 300 Win are the same , but the 300 Win is 150 grain instead of 125.

 

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

This is my take on the question and some follows the same line others have already mentioned.

#1 make sure the rifle fits the shooter. Also very important is stock style. Stay away from anything with a lot of drop in the butt. A typical classic style should be good.

#2 Make sure the scope has lots and lots or eye relief!!!!!

#3 If you or a friend reload, load reduced loads with light for caliber bullets and practice lots and lots all summer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Light for caliber would for example be a 100 or 110gr bullet in the 30cal.

These loads are fun to shoot, because of lower pressure and velocity, don't hear up a barrel as quickly.

#4 during the summer, get a quality HUNTING bullet and load worked up at a reasonable hunting velocity, But never shot by the young shooter during this period!!!!!!!!!

ONE REASON for the "lots and lots" of eye relief on the scope, is the fact that the "hunting" load will recoil a bunch more then the reduced loads and there is no need to get the young shooter gun shy from a scope cut.

During the load development, you have no need to be concerned about impact point on the targets, just groups.

Then, just before the hunt, YOU sight the rifle in with the "hunting loads" and head for the woods.

I have used this method for the wife, daughter and young friends and it works. They get lots of trigger time, NEVER get recoil shy and never feel the shot or two fired during hunting.

Also #5 take some of the hunting magazines and cut out pictures of game animals standing in different positions. Stick the images on a wall and spend hours with the young shooter mounting the rifle and dry firing.

This can teach the young shooter where to hold on the game animal, depending on the amimal's position and your position (above or below etc), providing them with a visable and mental image of where to hold and the bullet path through the critter.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

[predator86]

he is 14 and you just started on .22's???? christ you are about 10 years behind in training...an elk hunt has NO BUSINESS being a first hunt, he should have been started on rabbits at 8, where you see lots and shoot lots and have fun, going hunting with dad as many times as possible...its difficult to keep young ones interested in hunting and the outdoors, if his first year or two dont net him any success dont expect to see him out there a 3rd year.. i wouldnt start him on elk because he will lose his fire as soon as it isnt fun anymore...and elk hunts are hard work, ESPECIALLY if he gets one...i would start him on deer, and get him interested and make him earn his elk hunt..


and do start sooner with your other kids..

 

[freakshow10mm]

With all due respect, the OP is the boy's father, not you.

Second of all, this thread is about loads and ammo, not about how to bring your child up in the outdoors.

Finally, if you are going to pontificate and play dad of the year, do it in another thread please.

 

[ZeroJunk]

With all due respect, the OP is the boy's father, not you.

Second of all, this thread is about loads and ammo, not about how to bring your child up in the outdoors.

Sort of what I was thinking.

 

[davlandrum]

Thanks for having my back ZeroJunk and freakshow10mm.


Predator86 -

My oldest has ADHD, bad. We finally found the right combo of medications when he was about 12. Everyday, he takes 3 different meds as soon as he gets up to get him through the day. If we had not finally found the right combo, he would not even be shooting bb guns. This is part of the reason I said we would be so close together we could wear the same shirt.

As far as success rate and hard work, I can confidently say there is a much better chance where I hunt on elk, rather than deer. Hard work is always a part of hunting, and as it will be during the time when people will be heading up prior to bow season, there will be plenty of people to spread the work. Just as we help them when they get one down.

I sure do appreaciate your opinion .

 

[Old Grump]

My uncle took a moose with a 270 and 130 grain bullet about 40 years ago, I have a feeling the 125 gr bullet out of a 30-06 will do fine in your range.

For a fudge factor if you are worried about the bullet look at Federal Fusion Lite Low Recoil 30-06 170 gr. It only goes 2,000 fps but the heavier bullet should do a better job of getting int the boiler room of an Elk with half the recoil of a standard load. It's almost the equivalent of my 32 Win spcl with 170 gr bullets and I guarantee it has penetration.

Might be a little pricey but it would be worth it to try it against the Remington and compare accuracy and felt recoil. Shoot what the gun prefers is my usual rule but any bullet that goes within 4" of where I aim at 100 yards is going to bring home the bacon.

Congratulations to you for bringing your boy along under difficult conditions and introducing him to your sport. It might just be the thing that he can focus on. Lord knows if I hadn't grown up in the woods as a kid I would have been hell on wheels looking for trouble in a town situation. If mom would have killed me when I was a kid there wouldn't have been a court in this country who would have convicted her. Something about being in the woods with the fog coming up over the lake and all you can smell is the lake and hear the loons calling. Beat the heck out of loud music and video games. Not that we had those games back in the 40's and 50's.

 

[graniteob]

I would just get some loads from Freakshow10mm and get out there and practice. The barnes is a solid bullet. Even at a medium speed it penetrates well and does plenty of damage along the way. My friend has shot a couple of nice pigs with his 30-30 pistol loaded with some of those. Seemed to work very nice.


The next best would be what Grump said about the federal low recoil ammo. A 170 grain fusion is plenty of medicine for any elk. It would hold together better than the 125 grain corelokt.


Good luck to you and your son and I hope you can make it happen.

 

[sw282]

Grump and Federal have the right idea. 2000fps is same velocity as my 458 Win ammo. Yall know what 458s are used for. That 170gr Fusion is just the ticket for elk. The old buffalo hunters did great with a lot LESS speed then that.

 

[James R. Burke]

I also aggree with Mobuck.

 

[moosemike]

Go with the Federal Lite with the 170 grain. The Remington 125 does not give great penetration.

 

[davlandrum]

Thanks guys, we will give both the reloading and the federal fusions a try.

 

[Jack O'Conner]

I wouldn't tackle elk with any bore smaller than 6.5mm caliber. My elk rifle is .308 shooting 180 grain soft tips. I always shoot 'em twice through the chest organs. But I've also taken a few with 30-30 and 170 grain ammo. My son raves about his Marlin 35 Remington. He hunts in big timber where shots are fast and fairly close.

I feel that 125 grain bullet in 30-06 is less-than-ideal and advise against it.

Jack

 

[moosemike]

Nice pic Jack. That sure gets the blood pumpin'.

 

[cje1980]

Below is a link to a test of the 170gr Fusion load fired from a 30-30 in comparison to the 170gr Nosler Partition, also for the 30-30. That fusion bullet is the same exact bullet used in the Fusion Lite loads for 308Win and 30-06.

The load penetrated 25" of gelatin and expanded nicely. It's a good bullet and will perform well on Elk. The Fusion Lite has pretty much the same ballistics, only that it starts off 100 fps slower than the 30-30 loads. I automatically knock off 100 fps from any published velocity figures for the 30-30, since hardly anybody actually uses a 30-30 with a 24" barrel. I would keep shots at no more than 150 yards given the slow 2,000fps velocity of the Fusion Lite loads. At those ranges it will certainly get the job done. If you ask any DOW officer in Colorado they will tell you that Elk are usually found in thick timber rather than in big open spaces like you see in the magazines. I think the Magnum calibers are highly overrated. If you are a good hunter and know where tho find Elk most shots will actually be within 100-150 yards. So many of the long range calibers are actually poor performers at those ranges because the bullets have way too much impact velocity.

http://www.levergunlovers.com/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=1989

 

[davlandrum]

cje - Thanks for the link!

Western Oregon is dense country - I think technically it is a temperate rain forest, so long shots are not even an issue. Getting within 100 yds is not a problem (at least most of the time). I run into problems trying to cut that 100 yds down to bow range

 

[cje1980]

Its kind of the same thing in Colorado. A lot of people think of Colorado having a lot of open spaces but there are some very thick forests here. During hunting season the Elk and Deer leave the high mountain meadows and head downhill and hang around in the thick timber. Elk aren't dumb. You usually won't see them very close to roads or in open spaces.

I've seen so many guys hunting Deer and Elk with the big Magnums be very disappointed in bullet performance. The fact is the vast majority of shots at big game are well under 100 yards. The big Magnums only have an advantage at longer distances like.

You should be fine with the Fusion Lite ammo. You'll be hard pressed to actually find a bullet from even a 30-06 that performs better at the ranges the loading is designed for. A 170 gr 30 caliber pill is quite effective on a wide variety of medium-big size game inside of 200 yards.

Like others have said, definitely avoid the Remington stuff. I've never thought much of a 125gr 30 caliber bullet for anything other than really small deer. I wouldn't even use that stuff on Mule Deer, let alone Elk. With a load that light, you are getting into sectional density in the scale of handgun rounds.

 

[Jack O'Conner]

I'm very impressed with the Fusion performance. 30-30 has always had a very good reputation for straight line penetration. The trick to a fast kill with any truly large animal is to hit 'em twice in the chest. This Winchester bullet penetrated red stag from stem to stern!

I shot this large red stag 3 times with my 30-30 Winchester Legasy. Last shot wasn't necessary.

Good hunting to you.

Jack

 

[briandg]

My thoughts are that you should at least consider going to a 7-08 with a 140 grain bullet. In a bonded format they will give all the penetration that you will need to drop an elk, and at equal velocities, it will perform FAR better than a 125 grain 30 caliber in penetration.

IMO, larger game is a challenge to get full penetration, and I'd rather have full penetration than full expansion. Especially since you are looking at reducing velocity.

One last thought, are shotgun slugs legal? A 20 gauge slug may be an answer worth looking into. Think about it.