Steve Smith
New member
So what is this thread solving?
Man size target - MYTH
- Thread starter Dave3006
- Start date
Andrew Wyatt
New member
I'm relatively certain that this thread is in response to my vigorous defense of the mini-14 in another thread.
I'm having a hard time understanding how my observations about static off a bench group size and it's importance (or lack thereof) in real world performance (which is the result of many years of observation at the WC3gun match, conversations with knowlegeable riflemen, and personal experimentation) could be considered a myth.
I'm having a hard time understanding how my observations about static off a bench group size and it's importance (or lack thereof) in real world performance (which is the result of many years of observation at the WC3gun match, conversations with knowlegeable riflemen, and personal experimentation) could be considered a myth.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Well, KS, and realize I'm generalizing, not trying to write a book:
The common home defense IMO is against one or two Bad Guys at most. It is often solved with a handgun or a simple shotgun, and the distances involved are mostly what we here would consider "very close". It is not unusual for the mere sight of a weapon to repel Bad Guys. I'm thinking here of the sort of stuff reported in "The Armed Citizen".
For SHTF, the best I could do is to think of stuff like the LA riots; most of the Bad Guys were pretty much out in the open, SFAIK, and at fairly close ranges. For any given encounter, it appears that a limited number of Bad Guys were involved. Skill seems to have been more important than inherent accuracy, for those defending their stores, etc. I dunno for certain, but Bad Guys didn't seem to advance INTO gunfire.
For wartime combat, it seems to me that one doesn't know whether shooting will be up close or "out there". Plus, there are the side-issues of Incoming! of one sort or another. Further, there may well be more of them than there are of you and your own outfit. Skill AND inherent accuracy become more important. There is also the factor of enemy leadership not stopping the action while there appears any hope of success. Thus, more demands on logistic capabilities and the discipline of personnel.
Sure, the principles of shooting are a constant, and skill will always be very important. Accuracy is always desireable--but not always a real necessity.
Anyhow, that's why I prefer that these arenas be looked at separately.
, Art
The common home defense IMO is against one or two Bad Guys at most. It is often solved with a handgun or a simple shotgun, and the distances involved are mostly what we here would consider "very close". It is not unusual for the mere sight of a weapon to repel Bad Guys. I'm thinking here of the sort of stuff reported in "The Armed Citizen".
For SHTF, the best I could do is to think of stuff like the LA riots; most of the Bad Guys were pretty much out in the open, SFAIK, and at fairly close ranges. For any given encounter, it appears that a limited number of Bad Guys were involved. Skill seems to have been more important than inherent accuracy, for those defending their stores, etc. I dunno for certain, but Bad Guys didn't seem to advance INTO gunfire.
For wartime combat, it seems to me that one doesn't know whether shooting will be up close or "out there". Plus, there are the side-issues of Incoming! of one sort or another. Further, there may well be more of them than there are of you and your own outfit. Skill AND inherent accuracy become more important. There is also the factor of enemy leadership not stopping the action while there appears any hope of success. Thus, more demands on logistic capabilities and the discipline of personnel.
Sure, the principles of shooting are a constant, and skill will always be very important. Accuracy is always desireable--but not always a real necessity.
Anyhow, that's why I prefer that these arenas be looked at separately.
, ArtDouble Naught Spy-
Don't forget that machine guns were also used to break up troops that were pretty far out, sometimes as much as 1,400 yards IIRC. Rarely did they report hits but they did make use of the machine guns at this range. I'd suggest reading "A Rifleman Went to War" by McBride if you haven't already read it. It is about a sniper/scout in WWI. Its a good read. A little dry at some points but worth it.
Don't forget that machine guns were also used to break up troops that were pretty far out, sometimes as much as 1,400 yards IIRC. Rarely did they report hits but they did make use of the machine guns at this range. I'd suggest reading "A Rifleman Went to War" by McBride if you haven't already read it. It is about a sniper/scout in WWI. Its a good read. A little dry at some points but worth it.
But... errors are cumulative, yes?
Ergo, A man capable of firing within 6MOA under stress, armed with a 1MOA rifle, will be shooting within 7" of the intended target.
The same man with a 4 MOA rifle will hit within 10" of the intended target.
Seems like those few inches could make a big dif one day. Life is already stacked against ya enough as it is -- why settle for something that makes it harder still?
-K
Ergo, A man capable of firing within 6MOA under stress, armed with a 1MOA rifle, will be shooting within 7" of the intended target.
The same man with a 4 MOA rifle will hit within 10" of the intended target.
Seems like those few inches could make a big dif one day. Life is already stacked against ya enough as it is -- why settle for something that makes it harder still?
-K
Dave's continuing need to dispel the "MYTHS" for all of us simple folk at TFL.
Next up: "Luke Says 'You're Not My Father' - MTYH"
Pretty much.
People should probably spend most of their time on the first, consider the second as a contingency, and leave the soldiering up to the soldiers. It's ok to entertain Rambo fantasies, "but we done beat up dem Russians, Paulie." But, Jeebus... sometimes it's sounding like Robin Willams in Survivors.
I think Art pretty much has the handle on it. Different sutuations require different tactics and therefore different levels of accuracy.
HD or SD is typically a single defender against one or a couple of attackers, at close range. Accuracy important, but 100yard, 50 yard, or possibly even 25 yard shots are not likely. This is the carbine and shotgun arena.
Full out battle could be a many on many engagement with all involved heavily armed and coordinated. It's semi-planned and should have could good teamwork among those on each side. Selective fire assault rifles are the rule here (or lots of volly firing with battle rifles). Teams would provide heavy but not neccesarily accurate covering fire (possibly with designated snipers though) to keep the bad guys down while other teams manuver foreward. Once there, closer range, more accurate shots with the shock effect of a rush and possibly gredades, tear gas, what have you.
SHTF, might be something inbetween or a combination of both. Maybe really more of a KYAGB(Kiss Your A** Goodbye). It would probably more like the Hollywood bank robbery (from the robber's point of view) or the LA riots type neighborhood defense scenario. Possibly a few against many engagment. Medium to long range (hopefully) and a combinations of suppression and accurate fire. Again, assault type rifles or carbines would probably be your best hope, but likely with semi-auto firing.
HD or SD is typically a single defender against one or a couple of attackers, at close range. Accuracy important, but 100yard, 50 yard, or possibly even 25 yard shots are not likely. This is the carbine and shotgun arena.
Full out battle could be a many on many engagement with all involved heavily armed and coordinated. It's semi-planned and should have could good teamwork among those on each side. Selective fire assault rifles are the rule here (or lots of volly firing with battle rifles). Teams would provide heavy but not neccesarily accurate covering fire (possibly with designated snipers though) to keep the bad guys down while other teams manuver foreward. Once there, closer range, more accurate shots with the shock effect of a rush and possibly gredades, tear gas, what have you.
SHTF, might be something inbetween or a combination of both. Maybe really more of a KYAGB(Kiss Your A** Goodbye). It would probably more like the Hollywood bank robbery (from the robber's point of view) or the LA riots type neighborhood defense scenario. Possibly a few against many engagment. Medium to long range (hopefully) and a combinations of suppression and accurate fire. Again, assault type rifles or carbines would probably be your best hope, but likely with semi-auto firing.
Andrew Wyatt
New member
errors aren't exactly cumulative.
the accuracy of the rifle only sets an upper limit to the accuracy of the person/rifle system.
So a 1 moa rifle and a six moa shooter will give you an aggregate of six moa.
the accuracy of the rifle only sets an upper limit to the accuracy of the person/rifle system.
So a 1 moa rifle and a six moa shooter will give you an aggregate of six moa.