Man size target - MYTH

Dave3006

New member
There are so many myths among the gun owners. Here is one of my favorites.

- If a gun can hit a man size target at 100 yards, is sufficient for combat"

Wrong. Accuracy is important.

When the shooting starts, people hide behind things. No one just walks out in the open. Most of the time you only have a head, foot, or leg to shoot at. Accuracy is important because the more times you have to shoot to hit the BODY PART that you are trying for, the more you are exposed to enemy fire.

Think about it. Accuracy is important because most of the time your target is small. If you hit it the first try, you don't have to try again and make yourself known or exposed.

What you believe can get you killed.
 

cracked butt

New member
Not only that, but a 'man-sized' target isn't going to sit still long enough for you to find a convenient benchrest with a pile of sandbags to shoot from.
 

Redlg155

New member
Interesting, but the fact is that there aren't many battle rifle combinations out there that will produce sub MOA accuracy with iron sights and military spec non match ammo.

Thousands of soldiers have been killed with AK 47s, Enfields, M44s, M1 Gerands, M1 Carbines, FALs, and the list goes on and on. How many of these rifles are capable of producing 1" groups at 100 meters? You most likely won't find one unless it is an exceptional specimen with match ammo. Most of these will produce 3-4" groups and some even larger. Factor in the stress of actual battle and your group sizes open considerably. The average soldier does not have the leisure of picking off the target at extended ranges as does the sniper. Stick your head out for an aimed shot and you just might become a trophy yourself.:eek:

I do agree that accuracy does count. I also agree that there is nothing..with the exception of Artillery that will affect the morale of the troops as a good sniper will. Someone you can't see that is picking off your buddies is scary indeed.

So yes..be as accurate as you can. But everyone doesn't want to carry a bolt action glass bedded rifle with high power optics to protect their home either.

Good SHooting
RED
 

Mo_Zam_Beek

New member
Oh thank gawd - I don't wanna have to get rid of my SAR with a bent barrel and canted sights.

It may not shoot straight, but it sure is ugly.
 

Badger Arms

New member
You are right, being able to hit a man-sized target at 100 yards is not the prerequisite for an effective battle rifle. However, neither is accuracy in general. How many soldiers have a steady hand when under fire at such a short distance. Read (and watch) Blackhawk down. Snap-shooting and burst control are key to an effective operation. While the occasion will present itself where you can take aim and fire accurately, this is secondary to volume of fire and many other factors.

It's well known that volume of fire is more important than accuracy as showin in the studies for the SPIW, SALVO, and ACR programs. We're not all Carlos Hatchcock. If we were, I'd agree with you. Under fire and all of the stresses of combat, a .5 MOA rifle will turn into a 10 MOA rifle anyhow. Heartrate, breathing, excitement, fear, survival instincts, etc. all contribute to a very tense situation. Actual studies showed that the majority of soldiers, even those with a great degree of training, would not EVER take the proper time to allign the sights, use proper trigger and breath control, and expose themselves long enough to shoot MOA anyhow.
 

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
The problem we have here, though, in discussions, is that there are three main arenas: "Normal" self-defense around one's home; SHTF, and actual wartime combat.

When these get jumbled up in various postings, it's difficult to concentrate on one particular arena...

:), Art
 

Erich

New member
Excellent point, Art.

I'm a decent enough rifle shot, but nothing like I was back in college. When I consider actually having to use the rifle I feel pretty okay, given your breakdown of its roles. I strongly suspect I'll never have to worry about actual wartime combat; I guess I'm in my comfort range for SHTF preparedness; I feel confident I can protect my home/subdivision if necessary (which, if I'm getting rifles out to keep people from getting in, sounds a lot like SHTF).

Although, now that I think about it, I need a whole lot more house-clearing type training with my AR for the category you call "'normal' self defense around the home". . . Art, I'm glad you broke it down like this. It's given me something to think about. Maybe I need to get with my man, KSFreeman, and get me to Thunder Ranch!
 

Dave3006

New member
Wow. I did not get as flamed as I thought I would. Although, an accurate gun is important for a soldier, my major concern is a SHTF situation for a civilian. We do not have unlimited ammo and the luxury of calling in air support.

Badger arms is correct in that people get nervous and are less than perfect under battle conditions. However, my point is that the more a person falls victim to this, the more likely that person will get dead. A calm attitude and an accurate rifle will give you an edge over the other guy who has to expose himself 8 times just to try to take you out.
 

KSFreeman

New member
Erich, .223 inside? Feh, I'm deef enough. Only if I really have to. Plus, I don't wear tactical black PJs to bed. UR or API223 this fall or next spring, sir?

May the learned elders of TFL forgive me, but I'm going to disagree with Art. Art, the scenarios may be different but the principles applied in the fight are the same.
 
Even our native Americans and frontiersmen knew the value of being "treed" as opposed to standing elbow to elbow and volley firing. During the Civil War, it was originally considered "unmanly" to duck and cover but the wise soldier soon learned not only to duck and cover, but to crawl and dig.
 

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
The main reason for close ranks was to resist cavalry attacks with bayonets. When no cavalry is present, then hiding behind obstacles might make more sense.
 

Mute

New member
"If a gun can hit a man size target at 100 yards, is sufficient for combat."

Dave, where do you here these conversations? While I don't think you have to have sub MOA accuracy to have an effective field weapon, a rifle that can only shoot 4 MOA will still hit a human size target at 100 yards.

I'm not sure if the above statement is prevalent enough to be labeled a myth, 'cause I've never heard anyone say that, at least not out loud.
 

C.R.Sam

New member
Closed ranks predate cavalry.

Hidden riflemen...bushwhackers...very effective against cavalry.

"Good enough to hit a man at 100yds"......that covers a lot of folks with a snub revolver.

However....how many thousands of rounds fired per downed enemy in assorted wars ?

Most battle rifles and assult rifles better than most of the users.

Sam
 

Jimmy Mac

New member
I always hear the BS about how the AK is not accurate enough for combat.

The fact that several million AKs have been made and the fact that the AK has killed a whole lot of people even US troops in combat does not matter to those that think it is a useless weapon.

Facts do not seem to influnce the thinking of some folks.

My Garand and M1a both are capable of about 2 MOA. Just because the rifles are capable of this type accuracy does not mean that I can shoot them like that from field positions even when someone is not shoot back at me.

Your rifle must be reliable above everything else. Accuracy comes second. I would take an AK that can bearly shoot 6 MOA rather than another rifle that is capable of one half inch groups that was prone to jam when it gets dirty.

Even some of the worst rifles ever made are capable of better accuracy than the average man can fire them when he is scared to death.

Those that do not belive this have never been in this kind of situwation or they are lying about it.
 

KSFreeman

New member
Mr. Wolf, closed ranks were around before firearms or cav. Think of Prince Daniel and the boyars of the Grand Duchy of Moskva fighting off the Tartars of the steppe. Go back further and think of the Macedonians or the Greeks. Or think of cavemen vs. a sabertooth tiger! Look how a police dog attacks--rear against something and teeth on full auto, then leaps.

But, always, think of the children.:D
 
Art is right in that Dave3006's statement represents a gross generality. Dave is right to a certain extent, but also wrong as well. Everything comes down to situation context and needed application. In WWI, Hiram Maxim's machine guns did not need to be that accurate as their purpose was to simply hose down advancing troops as they emerged from the trenches. Accuracy was not terrific and quite often the gun was not aimed by the barrel or sights, but by watching the points of impact. If the gunner's aim was off some, then he just walked in the rounds as needed.

I would not even begin to question a need for accuracy in most situations, but there are times where accuracy is not nearly as important as sustained fire power. Take the North Hollywood bank robbery. This is a cool example. The bad guys did not actually have more fire power than the police. There were two guys with automatic rifles against some 150 officers firing pistols and shotguns initially. The number of 150 was the number given at one point by a police spokesperson when asked how many officers were engaged in the gun battle. There were an additional 250 or more involved in trying to provide back-up, support services, and securing the area. So depending on how you look at it, the bad guys were facing 75:1 fighting ratio against them and 200:1 total against them. With such overwhelming numbers, obviously the bad guys were be taken out very quickly, right?

The bad guys only needed to be reasonably accurate so as to effectively remove officers from battle and managed to score hits by shooting through vehicles the officers attempted to use for cover. Their needs were not to completely kill everyone, just to suppress the officer's offensive abilities and the bad guys did this very well for nearly 45 minutes. In this case, the bad guys had the guns and ammo for a lengthy engagement and did not need to aim their rounds with a great deal of accuracy and made shots well beyond the normal range expected for an AK-47. Shooting was both sighted and unsighted, much of the shooting simply being suppression fire. Civilians and officers were either unarmored or lightly armored. The bad guy rifle rounds would penetrate and did penetrate the officers' ballistic vests. Great accuracy was not needed by the bad guys while using automatic weapons. The bad guys were actually very well prepared for the type of engagement they might encounter.

The situation from the officer's side was just the opposite. The officers had handguns and shotguns that would not penetrate the body armor worn by the bad guys. To their advantage, the officers had vastly superior numbers, had the bad guys surrounded, and were able to fire at the bad guys from several directions at once. However, since the bad guys were armored and the engagements took place at some distance, shotguns were ineffective and pistol rounds on the body were not effective. More than anything else, the officers needed a gun that could produce very precise shooting at long range, in excess of 100 yards, something they were completely unable to accomplish with handguns fighting against automatic rifles. None of the officers scored a head shot from distance. One bad guy was killed by a combination head shot from and officer and by shooting himself in the head after he abandoned his AK. The officer's shot was from a distance of something like 10 yards.

So, in the same situation, you had one side that desparately needed longer range accuracy and did not have it when needed (the cops) and one side that did not need much accuracy and were able to hold off vastly superior numbers for a very long period of time (the 2 bad guys).
 

MAKOwner

New member
Since when is 3-4 inch groups ONLY enough to hit "a man sized target" anyway? I often shoot at old small empty ammo boxes well under the size of a man's head with my AKs and no trouble smoking them unsupported and with stock iron sights. All of my various AKs and SKSs shoot around a 3-4 inch group. If an AK shot 12 inch groups I would agree that they would be ****. But unless it's a total POS example most of the these "inaccurate" assault rifles are just fine for nailing heads or other various body parts at 100 yards... There's not a whole lotta practical differences between 2" groups and 3-4" groups IMO... Who said all they could hit was a "man sized target"? Unless I'm not thinking correctly that implies to me the rifle only shoots 12-15 inch groups or something which is definitely not the case with a decent AK or SKS, lol...
 

Frohickey

New member
So yes..be as accurate as you can. But everyone doesn't want to carry a bolt action glass
bedded rifle with high power optics to protect their home either.

Thats why every home should be equipped with a fully-loaded Phalanx system. :p

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