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Man shoots himself at local IDPA competition
- Thread starter SundownRider
- Start date
I think what he meant was, "You never want to risk your $300 trigger job by dropping the slide on an empty chamber
If da chamber was empty howd he shot himself? Don't makes no sense to me.
Like da say keep the snot picker off da bang switch and where did the $300 trigger job come from. Next ting we gonna know is he shot his hand off.
HOW BOUT THIS, STICK TO THE FACTS!
AcridSaint
New member
Since the left hand is off of the weapon and slapping the magazine, I don't see a time saver in using the slide release over racking the slide manually. I always do the latter to simplify the way I use the weapon. No safety rules have to be broken to load in this fashion. At least one, but most likely two or more were broken in the incident the OP wrote about.
The Canuck
New member
lonewulff said:what is wrong with just hitting the slide release, seems like it would take less time to move your thumb to hit it instead of moving the hand you inserted the mag with all the way to the top of the gun to manipulate the slide manually.
On some models of pistol there may be no slide release, also, you train with your pistol and know where the slide release is with great intimacy, but who says you'll finish the gunfight with your pistol?
When I was updating my skills I asked the instructor about the whole release/catch v. slingshot method and he told me the fine v. coarse motor skills story. I didn't buy it so he asked me if it was within the realm of possibility that I could end up using a pistol that was unfamiliar to me during the fight. That made sense.
i will say, on some models of handgun, the slide release is a small nubbin of metal that runs parallel to the vertical axis of the gun, and it is dificult to use, like my glock, esp in a high stress situation. and it falls under the gross vs fine motor skills. and thats where grabbing your slide with your whole hand would be the gross motor skill, increasing your success with reloading.
however, other pistols, like my px4, the slide release lever is long, and it sticks out perpendicular to my gun, sticks out like a shelf, and it is EASY to activate the slide release
however, other pistols, like my px4, the slide release lever is long, and it sticks out perpendicular to my gun, sticks out like a shelf, and it is EASY to activate the slide release
i simultaneously pinch the back of the slide and pull with my left hand using index finger and thumb, and push forward with my right, disengaging the slide stop, and letting the slide close home on its own. on a loaded mag though.
That's the way I always do it. Some people may be able to use methods that are faster, but I'd rather have all 10 fingers and lose a second.
bamaranger
New member
I'll bet
Although the OP says reload, I'll bet it was done on the initial loading of the pistol at the start of the stage. "Riding the slide" is a common handling mistake, comes from watching to many reruns of "Magnum PI". The finger on the trigger sounds like another newbie error as well.
I don't like the thumb and forefinger technique because it requires rolling the pistol over into a horizontal position, then , then rolling it back vertically to take an aimed shot, two extra movements that use time. Unless, I guess, you shoot horizontal, gangsta style!.
I'm quicker using the slide release lever, but the hand over, gross motor skills and any gun arguments won me over, and I train and reload in that manner now.
I was taught to grasp the slide at the grasping grooves, over the rear sight, and push the pistol forward, while the off hand comes rearward in an exaggerated movement to strike the gun holding shoulder. This was a time consuming technique that had an eye towards rookie safety on the firing line. These days, I drive the pistol forward, but the off hand rolls down ward to reform my shooting grip ASAP after drawing the slide rearward and releasing it at the rearmost of its travel.
Although the OP says reload, I'll bet it was done on the initial loading of the pistol at the start of the stage. "Riding the slide" is a common handling mistake, comes from watching to many reruns of "Magnum PI". The finger on the trigger sounds like another newbie error as well.
I don't like the thumb and forefinger technique because it requires rolling the pistol over into a horizontal position, then , then rolling it back vertically to take an aimed shot, two extra movements that use time. Unless, I guess, you shoot horizontal, gangsta style!.
I'm quicker using the slide release lever, but the hand over, gross motor skills and any gun arguments won me over, and I train and reload in that manner now.
I was taught to grasp the slide at the grasping grooves, over the rear sight, and push the pistol forward, while the off hand comes rearward in an exaggerated movement to strike the gun holding shoulder. This was a time consuming technique that had an eye towards rookie safety on the firing line. These days, I drive the pistol forward, but the off hand rolls down ward to reform my shooting grip ASAP after drawing the slide rearward and releasing it at the rearmost of its travel.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Fortunately, these sorts of events are self correcting problems.
I have never understood how it is that emotional sentiments are supposed to impact or influence non-living objects that have no capacity for emotion or sentiment.
I have never understood how it is that emotional sentiments are supposed to impact or influence non-living objects that have no capacity for emotion or sentiment.
spacecoast
New member
I don't like the thumb and forefinger technique because it requires rolling the pistol over into a horizontal position
Not sure why you would have to do this, it might make the squeeze a little easier.
bamaranger
New member
well.......you're right
Yes, you wouldn't HAVE to, but it sure seems awkward to me if you don't.
But, I don't use the technique.....so its awkward period. Still, keeping the pistol vertical, puts the slide in /at an awkward angle for a left hand thumb and forefinger grasp, particularly if the pistol is kept at a high ready, or tight to the body, don't you think? Dropped to waist level, and moved center its not so bad, but near eye level, or high on the right side in a ready, I can't get there easily!
Yes, you wouldn't HAVE to, but it sure seems awkward to me if you don't.
But, I don't use the technique.....so its awkward period. Still, keeping the pistol vertical, puts the slide in /at an awkward angle for a left hand thumb and forefinger grasp, particularly if the pistol is kept at a high ready, or tight to the body, don't you think? Dropped to waist level, and moved center its not so bad, but near eye level, or high on the right side in a ready, I can't get there easily!
this is what im seeing. people are keeping their gun in the "ready to shoot position" cause they want to start firing as soon as the round is chambered. takes too long to tilt the gun. takes too long to fumble for that slide release button.
but then they use gross motor skills to reload, and use gross motor skills to shoot. and thats what happened. dude shot himself cause he was using his gross motor skills
for me, shooting is about finesse, but thats just me
but then they use gross motor skills to reload, and use gross motor skills to shoot. and thats what happened. dude shot himself cause he was using his gross motor skills
for me, shooting is about finesse, but thats just me
AcridSaint
New member
Gross motor skill don't force you to break safety rules or pay less attention to your weapon. It's a pretty big leap from he shot himself by doing it wrong to he shot himself because he wasn't using fine motor skills.
its a contributing factor.
yes, he broke the holy rule of finger off the trigger. but when you hold something, and you need to have a good grip on it, you squeeze it with all your fingers, you dont squeeze with just the 3 and your thumb.
gross motor skill makes you use all 4. and since he was using the grab slide with entire hand, he was also using gross motor skills there too. so, grab top of slide, pull back. grab pistol grip, push forward. all using gross motor skills, and you can see how he shot himself.
yes, he broke the holy rule of finger off the trigger. but when you hold something, and you need to have a good grip on it, you squeeze it with all your fingers, you dont squeeze with just the 3 and your thumb.
gross motor skill makes you use all 4. and since he was using the grab slide with entire hand, he was also using gross motor skills there too. so, grab top of slide, pull back. grab pistol grip, push forward. all using gross motor skills, and you can see how he shot himself.
spacecoast
New member
but it sure seems awkward to me if you don't
Not really, I just pivot my right wrist (holding gun) a bit to the right to give it a good angle for the pinch with my left hand.
AcridSaint
New member
Muzzle awareness was also broken. I don't think there is any way we can agree that it's a logical progression from using gross motor skills to shooting yourself.
if they had used the slide release, this would have never happened. they could have accidentally discharged the gun but they wouldnt have shot themselves.
when i use the slide release, i have to rotate my hand a tiny bit for my thumb to reach the slide release. this causes my trigger finger to move away from the trigger
when i use the slide release, i have to rotate my hand a tiny bit for my thumb to reach the slide release. this causes my trigger finger to move away from the trigger
AcridSaint
New member
if they had used the slide release, this would have never happened.
This is just plain not true. You cannot state that using the slide release will unilaterally prevent self-inflicted shootings . If he had used the slide release properly he would not have been shot, if he had used the hand over technique properly he also would not have been shot. All firearm handling requires muzzle awareness, buttons and levers do not prevent poor weapon handling.
A rather largish (extra-wide) individual once shot himself at a range I used to frequent.
He was practicing right handed "quick" draw from a cross-draw cavalry flap holster mounted a bit forward on his left hip.
Somehow, he managed to thumbcock a black powder Colt Dragoon replica while clearing it from the holster and then touch it off while the muzzle was still pointed rearward. Put a .44 ball through his midsection (mostly love handle).
Didn't die, but he was definitely hurting.
He was practicing right handed "quick" draw from a cross-draw cavalry flap holster mounted a bit forward on his left hip.
Somehow, he managed to thumbcock a black powder Colt Dragoon replica while clearing it from the holster and then touch it off while the muzzle was still pointed rearward. Put a .44 ball through his midsection (mostly love handle).
Didn't die, but he was definitely hurting.
the whole point of my arguing is the percentages and probability.
why do people rely on gross motor skills over fine motor skills? because they have a higher chance(percentage) of performing the action successfully. instructors, idpa shooters, and self defense instructors say that when you are in a high stress situation(use of gun in self defense), results in the loss of fine motor control
and when in a life threatening situation, you do not have seconds to fumble with a tiny slide release. you use your left hand grab the entire slide, and yank it back and let go. you have just successfully reloaded or chambered a round.
however, putting your hand on the slide increases the chance you may shoot yourself
holding a gun with both hands by the pistol grip, and pressing the slide release with your thumb has a much lower percentage of shooting yourself.
its much harder to shoot yourself while holding a gun with both hands using the slide release. Unless you bend your elbows and point the gun directly at your head(underneath your chin), it is hard to point the muzzle at yourself.
try it. hold a gun properly with both hands and try and point it at your body without grossly bending your elbows
certain actions have a higher percentage of risk and success compared to others. if you feel that all actions are equal in risk and probability of success, thats your opinion, but nothing is ever 100% so you can't always say follow the gun safety rules and everything will always be ok.
why do people rely on gross motor skills over fine motor skills? because they have a higher chance(percentage) of performing the action successfully. instructors, idpa shooters, and self defense instructors say that when you are in a high stress situation(use of gun in self defense), results in the loss of fine motor control
http://www.killology.com/art_psych_combat.htmThe debilitating effects of combat stress have been recognized for centuries. Phenomenon such as tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, the loss of fine and complex motor control...
and when in a life threatening situation, you do not have seconds to fumble with a tiny slide release. you use your left hand grab the entire slide, and yank it back and let go. you have just successfully reloaded or chambered a round.
however, putting your hand on the slide increases the chance you may shoot yourself
holding a gun with both hands by the pistol grip, and pressing the slide release with your thumb has a much lower percentage of shooting yourself.
its much harder to shoot yourself while holding a gun with both hands using the slide release. Unless you bend your elbows and point the gun directly at your head(underneath your chin), it is hard to point the muzzle at yourself.
try it. hold a gun properly with both hands and try and point it at your body without grossly bending your elbows
certain actions have a higher percentage of risk and success compared to others. if you feel that all actions are equal in risk and probability of success, thats your opinion, but nothing is ever 100% so you can't always say follow the gun safety rules and everything will always be ok.