Man fires gun at a gun show.

[SaxonPig]

Obviously mistakes made by both parties. We know the rules and the drill.

Maybe 30 years ago I was at a show where a shopper picked up a center fire rifle and pulled the trigger. BOOM! In a heartbeat the whole room fell silent. Bullet went into ceiling and after a few seconds life went on as usual.

Seller maintained he never had any ammo for the rifle and had no idea how a round made it into the chamber. I have heard stories of gun control fanatics going to gun shows and loading guns hoping for bad press from ADs to facilitate more laws. You hope nobody would be that stupid but you never know with some folks on a political crusade.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

While I sort of agree that the buyer should not be charged, it was not an "accident," it was negligence.

You really believe that the event was planned or intended?

Did I SAY it was planned?

I said it was negligence. While you have your dictionary out, look up the definition "negligence." Of course it was intended, in a way. The buyer intentionally pulled the trigger.

 

[45_auto]

Words have meanings. When you make up your own definitions it causes understandable confusion.

Did I SAY it was planned?

Yes, see your post #11 above:

it was not an "accident,"

If, as you say it was not an accident, which by definition is not planned or intended, then it must have been planned or intended.

I said it was negligence. While you have your dictionary out, look up the definition "negligence."

If you take your time and read slowly, you will notice that I provided the common definition of "negligence" in the same post (#17) where I provided the definition of "accident" for you.

Of course it was intended, in a way. The buyer intentionally pulled the trigger.

That's like saying that it's not an accident when someone dies because they lost control and hit a tree after their tire blew out on the freeway. He must have intended to do it because he intentionally pressed the gas pedal and accelerated to 70 MPH. Doesn't matter that he inspected his tires before his trip and missed noticing that a tire had a small crack in it.

You seem to have a hard time understanding that an event can be both negligent and accidental. Here's the legal definition of "negligence" for you, I highlighted a couple of phrases to hopefully help you understand.

http://dictionary.law.com/default.aspx?selected=1314

negligence

n. failure to exercise the care toward others which a reasonable or prudent person would do in the circumstances, or taking action which such a reasonable person would not. Negligence is accidental as distinguished from "intentional torts" (assault or trespass, for example) or from crimes, but a crime can also constitute negligence, such as reckless driving. Negligence can result in all types of accidents causing physical and/or property damage, but can also include business errors and miscalculations, such as a sloppy land survey.

 

[g.willikers]

Remember to
Trust No One.
Especially around potentially dangerous stuff.
Way too many dim brained folks on the loose.

 

[Slopemeno]

I think Pogo would have a thing or two to say about this discussion. Always check. Now check again. There's a ton of new folks in the shooting scene these days.

 

[Oysterboy]

I always rack the gun three times. It takes two to load and eject and a third to see cleared. I prefer three clear racks.

 

[Mal H]

45_auto and Aguila Blanca let's stop the somewhat petty argument over semantics. In a sense, you are both right. Aguila did not say it was planned. His saying it was not an accident is not, by default, saying it was planned. Perhaps he could have chosen better words, but the obvious intent was to say it was an act caused by negligence, not by bad luck or anything not completely in the control of the two parties involved in the incident.

Let's leave it at that.

 

[Lohman446]

I get this was a failure.

However it was also, in some odd way, a "success" of at least one step being done right. The gun, which everyone believed was unloaded, was pointed at the floor when the trigger was pulled.

 

[Gunplummer]

I know a guy that got a ticket from a Game Warden for discharging a firearm near a parking lot. He was unloading his gun and one round went off. He was unloading in a safe direction, as the rules state you should. I guess people see something like that as they want to.

 

[Oysterboy]

If a gun goes off while unloading I can only think of two reasons, mechanical failure or human error.

 

[Old Stony]

I remember a case in Ca. some years ago where someone was going around the show and slipping live ammo into vendor's guns and then putting them back on the table. Easily done and hard to catch someone doing this if you are busy dealing with other customers. Lots of nutcakes out there....

 

[Erno86]

Open the bolt slightly and show "clear" {empty chamber}, then remove the magazine to see if "clear." It is preferred that this method of operation be performed twice in succession.

 

[Skans]

The real question is how did this happen. I read the story. Having been to countless gun shows, I don't believe the account of what is claimed to have taken place. Here's why.

1. When you zip-tie a semi-auto pistol, this is done at the gun show door, by a trained officer. No magazine would be in the gun at that time, or it would have been discovered and the patron told to leave the gun show. The zip tie must go through the barrel, so there is no chance of not seeing a loaded magazine while doing this.

2. So, it would be impossible to simply cut the zip tie and accidentally chamber a round. I deduce that the Seller either (a) snuck in the the gun and it was never zip-tied; or (b) the gun was zip tied and the Seller snuck in the loaded magazine (against gun show rules), inserted it back into the gun after entering the gun show and forgot about it when he showed the gun to a prospective buyer.

The one time I was in the vicinity of a negligent discharge at a gun show it turned out that it was a Seller who rented a table who did not check one of the guns he brought to sell - a prospective buyer accidentally shot him when examining the gun. Vendor's guns are not zip-tied.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I remember a case in Ca. some years ago where someone was going around the show and slipping live ammo into vendor's guns and then putting them back on the table. Easily done and hard to catch someone doing this if you are busy dealing with other customers. Lots of nutcakes out there....

This has come up numerous times. Got a link where this was documented? Nobody ever has a link. It really just seems to be urban lore.

 

[Skans]

An attendee can't just slip live ammo in a zip-tied gun. It's impossible. In this case, the cartridge was fed from a magazine. The loaded magazine had to have been placed into the gun by the Seller AFTER the gun was inside the show. It's possible the loaded weapon was snuck in by an attendee who failed to disclose this at the door and that it was never zip-tied at all.

In any event, I believe that someone (in the scenario) is lying!

 

[Old Stony]

Sorry, no documentation to the statement I made concerning someone sneaking ammo into vendor's guns at their tables. I set up as a vendor at many shows on the west coast in the past and remember the shows employees at a Sacramento gun show getting on the PA system to warn us about this occurring and to check all our firearms immediately. Someone was apparently doing it or they wouldn't have been warning us that it was happening.
Perhaps I just imagined the whole scenario and urban legends took over the loudspeaker system in the building.
After this occurred, we were not allowed to sell loose ammo at the shows anymore.
Skans....you ever ask a vendor to remove a zip tie so you could check the action/ timing/ or whatever on a firearm? I personally have and wouldn't buy a firearm without checking the essentials of it...that couldn't be done with a zip tie on it. They are routinely removed and replaced for this purpose.

 

[PACraftsman]

MosinM39 said it best. That's what I was taught and what I teach too. It solves these types of problems.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

1. When you zip-tie a semi-auto pistol, this is done at the gun show door, by a trained officer. No magazine would be in the gun at that time, or it would have been discovered and the patron told to leave the gun show. The zip tie must go through the barrel, so there is no chance of not seeing a loaded magazine while doing this.

I have attended gun shows in four states, and I have never seen a zip tie through a barrel. Not for vendors, not for customers.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Sorry, no documentation to the statement I made concerning someone sneaking ammo into vendor's guns at their tables. I set up as a vendor at many shows on the west coast in the past and remember the shows employees at a Sacramento gun show getting on the PA system to warn us about this occurring and to check all our firearms immediately. Someone was apparently doing it or they wouldn't have been warning us that it was happening.

I am sure management will say whatever they can to get vendors to properly check guns, even if it is just a ruse. While gun show mgmt checks all the customers who make entry, they do not check all of the guns brought in by vendors...as evidenced by numerous vendor discharges.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I have attended gun shows in four states, and I have never seen a zip tie through a barrel. Not for vendors, not for customers.

It is a common practice here in Texas, and I have seen it at the one gun show I have been to in Oklahoma. It happens all over the country. Here are but a few examples...

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...mmunition-show-held-in-Fort-Worth-8352293.php

Apparently, the Rocky Mountain Gun Show people do it (4 states)...
http://www.rockymountaingunshow.com/?lightbox=i21hso

Tennessee...
http://rkshows.com/events/category/tennessee/

Florida...
http://www.tbo.com/news/politics/gun-show-sales-are-not-the-problem-local-advocates-say-20160113/
http://www.floridatrend.com/article/6219/gun-shows-are-hot-in-florida

Oregon...
http://www.statesmanjournal.com/sto...ntroduce-gun-background-checks-bill/70484268/