M4 Question

[BikerRN]

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Hey all, I've got a question and I'm looking for answers.

Both of the agencies I have worked for have issued the M4, or as I like to think of it, the worst battle rifle known to man. Something about them has always turned me off, but I may end up buying one. The reason I'm buying one is because I may not be able to get one later in life, and I do need to practice once in a while, and my current and hopefully last agency doesn't let you "practice" with their guns.

Anyway, with all that said, and because I can't use a Sharps or a Bolt Action for distance work and a lever gun for close in work, if I can't have a shotgun, I was considering one by a maker I've never heard of. I have "feelers" out in various places and was wondering what people knew about this manufacturer.

http://www.americanspiritarms.com/

With the inflated prices and the political uncertainty at this time I can't find a Rock River, plus they are getting hard to afford. I've had to increase my budget from $800 to about $1200, which hurts. The only saving grace is, I can deduct it on my taxes. Bushmaster doesn't have a good reputation among people whose opinion I respect, and their expiriences. I haven't seen a CMMG in over a year locally and the one shop with a wall full of Colts is out of my price range.

I may be better waiting a year, but the uncertainty thing is forcing my hand. Something about these rifles leaves a bad taste in my mouth, as I'm more of a "traditionalist" and I also like a larger and heavier bullet.

With all that said, I eagarly await your replies and thank you in advance.

Biker

 

[Sixer]

I've personally never heard of them, but that doesn't really mean much.

I currently have a Bushy M4gery and just recently bought a CMMG lower receiver for around $150. I would say that if you think you MIGHT want an EBR in the future, then starting off with just a lower may be the way to go. Just a thought

 

[kraigwy]

Sounds to me you are pre-disposed not to like the gun anyway. I'd recomending saving your money for something you do like.

 

[scorpion_tyr]

the M4, or as I like to think of it, the worst battle rifle known to man.

Sounds like you and I got on the same train

I'd recomending saving your money for something you do like.

This is my advice also. I only differ in the fact that you may work for the same type of agency as I do. If you are only granted the weapon once every 1-2 years to qualify on, yet an any moment you may be issued one and your life depends on how well you use it, then I suggest you get one or similar to and practice practice practice.

 

[1goodshot]

My buddy has 1 of their guns, seems just as nice as my Bushmaster.He bought it becouse their a local company and it has a life time warranty.

 

[lipadj46]

Bushmaster doesn't have a good reputation among people whose opinion I respect, and their expiriences. I haven't seen a CMMG in over a year locally and the one shop with a wall full of Colts is out of my price range.

Take another look at Bushmaster some people have no real reasons or antiquated reasons for not liking Bushmaster. They have made improvements in their build (as far as I can tell) from the one I just bought. That web site with the pictures of the Bushmaster's staking and feed ramps are out of date. New Bushmasters have staked gas keys, M4 feed ramps and a shrouded firing pin among other improvements. I'm not sure if that means anything but people seem to use those out of date facts to knock bushmasters.

So anyways they are not Colts but they are pretty close as are many of the other AR brands. Keep an eye out at your local large gun shops they should be getting in ARs pretty consistently these days and demand is going to fall off so the prices will come to a point where your $1200 will get you a nice AR.

I am in NY, a ban state and got this just the other day for $1100 out the door. The gun shop had 10 ARs on the rack and quite a few in the back according to the guy. It is a Bushmaster A3 with a heavy 24" barrel and I am going to keep it with the irons:

 

[ranger dave]

asa

asa make a great rifle but what kind of dumb asses do you work for that don't train or practice with your m4 . the ar 15 is more then enough gun for any cop what do you want belt feed

 

[comn-cents]

Ranger Dave
He never said they don't train with them, just they won't let you practice with them.

Bushmaster are great guns. I have one with over 4thousands rounds through it. There has been exactly 4 problems in that whole time. The first three rounds I put through it. Then at around the 2 thousand round mark my brother was using it and had a double feed. Not sure what he did, he was new to guns at the time.

 

[chadwick76]

i'm assuming that you have plenty of knowledge about ballistics, so don't worry, the 5.56 or .223 is a great bullet. Paired with a good rifle, "it can truly reach out and touch someone". I live in indy, and in feb's gunshow, there were rock river arms m-4's going for $900. Keep your eye out and keep looking, also get on ar15.com for more advice. But stay rock river, they are great guns, especially compared to c0lt (yes i do own both).

 

[2cooltoolz]

Well, I don't know how you feel about Gunbroker, but this guy has a couple of CMMG's for sale. I've never heard of him, but his feedback seems pretty good.
+ $25 shipping
+ $25-$35 FFL transfer
no sales tax for interstate; roughly offsets these charges

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=127584832

I've had pretty good luck buying and selling on Gunbroker, but I know some have not.

Here's an RRA for the same price, big dealer, little higher shipping.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=127738001

 

[strat81]

I'd build or buy an assembled lower receiver (with your choice of stock and grip) and then add a Bravo Company Manufacturing (BCM) 16" upper. If you're on the taller side, get the mid-length for the extra room it provides with the longer handguard. Add a BCM bolt carrier group, some type of rear sight, and a case of ammo.

I've never heard much about ASA, which is kind of odd.

 

[RT]

I agree with strat81.
The BCM 16 in midlength is a great upper and most folks will argue that a midlength gas system is preferable to a carbine system. The problem is that BCM middies and BCM BCGs are highly sought after and usually sell out within an hour. You gotta get on the email list. I built a rifle up slowly by accumulating parts. Started with a BCM midlength upper and added a 9 in DD Omega rail. Put it on an LMT lower with a MOE grip and stock and added a LaRue BUIS, FUG, and BCM FA BCG. Now I am just waiting for my optics. By building it, I was able to create exactly what I wanted and spread the cost out over a couple of months. It's the one on the bottom.

 

[strat81]

Re: the BCM uppers and availability-

They do sell out quickly. If I was in the position of the OP, I'd contact them via phone and explain the situation. They might make an exception and allow a pre-order for a LEO. You'd have nothing to lose by asking.

 

[DBAR]

I seem to remember a couple of threads on AR15.com about them that where not too favorable. Go ck out that forum, and you may find a little more info about them.

If it where me, and if I where a LEO. I'd do as others have advised. Call on some on the better known companies such as Bravo Company, and explain to them about what your trying to do. Some of these companies will make exceptions for true LEO's.

 

[BikerRN]

Thank you all for the help and advice.

I was off for a couple of days, and couldn't get to a computer. I'll be making some telephone calls on Monday morning.

As far as the ballistics, the 5.56 makes a great rabbit round, but them I'm partial to .308, .338, and my all time favorite: 45-70. As far as belt fed, one can dream can't he?

I know I will never get a belt fed weapon, and truth be told I think my agency would be irresponsible to allow it, no matter how much I might like it. I'd much rather use a 12 Guage at any distance I would use an M4 at, and I have two set up for use.

Since I use a 5.56 at work I will train on my own time with a 5.56 that is set up just like the issued guns. I'm leaning away from the American Spirit and looking at LMT, RRA, and CMMG.

Biker

 

[TimT]

BikerRN,

If you don't mind me asking, why don't you like M-4's? I know you said there was something you didn't like about them, but what is it? Looks, handling, reliability, the ammo?

Thanks,

Tim

PS, for what its worth, I have an RRA and am very pleased with it. As reliable as the Colt's I carried when I was in the Army.

 

[BikerRN]

TimT,

No, I don't mind you asking.

What I don't like is the round. I question it's ability to effectively end a fight "Right Now", no matter how well the rounds are placed, or the type of round used. I consider it like a 9mm.

The 9mm is enough to do the job, if one selects the right ammo and puts the bullets in the right place, which is true for any handgun or rifle round. It's just that there is much less margin for error. From hunting I know how far an individual animal can travel, even with a well placed shot with a "good" round. I am wanting to eliminate as many variables as I can, thus I prefer larger holes and heavier rounds.

To me the 5.56 or .223 has always been a small varmit round. Coyotes, foxes, wild dogs, etc are what it's best suited for, IMHO. I consider the Galil, the FAL or the AK, in their respective chamberings to be a much better "Right Now" fight stopper, but one still has to do their part and put the rounds where they will do the most good.

The military application of this round is different than the LEO application of this round, IMO. The military wants to wound an adversary, because wounding one ties up three more enemy combatants in treating the wounded. The LEO or civilian application is one in which the threat needs to be stopped now! Thus, one is not concerned with wounding, but stopping a threat. If the threat is wounded, but still able to manipulate the trigger with their finger, the threat has not ceased. You may or may not have limited the threat's ability to move, but you have not stopped the threat.

The 5.56 loses much of it's power at longer distances, and doesn't have all that much to begin with at close distances. For the distances most would use a 5.56 for I like a 12 Guage with appropriate loadings. Out to 35 Yards, give me 00 Buck. From 35 Yards to 100 Yards I'll take a slug thank you.

The military is often tasked with lying down suppression fire. This is not something that a LEO or civilian defender will most likely be called upon to do. Each round needs to be accounted for, and the round needs to be enough to get the job done, and I find the 5.56/.223 lacking in that department.

Maybe I'm guilty of suffering from "overkill" but I don't think so. I just know that while I may use a 9mm at work, I prefer the .40 or the .45. If I have to use a 9mm I prefer a .357 in a Revolver or a 357 Sig, which is a 9mm on steroids.

Biker

 

[BikerRN]

OK, thanks for the help.

I made my decision, and went with a Colt. It's what we use at work, and I got it for a great price on an individual officer purchase program.

My cost was the same as what the American Spirit was going for plus a few dollars for shipping. I'll post in about 45 days, when I get it.

Now I have to go sell my Colt SAA to pay for it.

Biker

 

[TimT]

Glad you got one ordered.

I agree with you on 5.56. I've seen too many guys get shot multiple times in the chest (FMJ's), and still have enough fight left in them to pull triggers.

What do you feel about the rifles themselves? Caliber aside, I do like the M-4, and would rather go get in a fight with that than any other rifle. I think they are reliable, but the kicker for me is the almost unlimited ways you can configure them to suit your needs for the mission at hand.

 

[BikerRN]

Mr. Tim,

As far as the rifle itself, they don't do much for me. As I said before, I much prefer a FAL, AK, BAR or Galil as a battle rifle.

I like shotguns out to 100 Yards, after that I'm looking for a bolt gun. Actually I'd prefer a Sharps, but I'm an old stick in the mud. I figure the Sharps 45-70 is great from 200 - 800 Yards and isn't too shabby at 1,000 Yards either, but I'd want a .338 bolt gun myself.

Heck, I wouldn't feel undergunned if they let me carry a .357 Magnum Revolver on duty, but they don't. Like I said, I'm a stick in the mud. I realize that the AR/M4 platform is like an erector set, maybe that's why I don't care for it. I always feel like I'm holding my neighbor kids Leggo's.

Biker