M&P Trigger: Why I Can't Shoot it Consistenly

tahunua001

New member
my issues with M&Ps

hello tunnelrat,
I'm going to start by saying I am an XDM guy, love them, I am NOT telling you to get one, I'm just saying that I was at a tossup between XDMs and M&Ps and once I got an M&P in hand I had 3 issues with it.
1. I could not tell when the trigger broke
2. I could not tell when it reset, which forced me to fully release the trigger.
3. all my shots went low and left
sounds like more than a cowinkydink.
now again I'm not saying that you should sell it and get an (type gun I like here) like most singletrack shooters would, but I would say if you bought it you must have liked the way it felt inhand, therefore rather than looking for a different gun that feels equally as good it would be cheaper and more than likely more to your benefit to find a good aftermarket trigger for it and see if that helps your problem, if you still have the issues, then you'll just have a more expensive gun to sell and wont have to pay as much out of pocket for a new one.
 

tahunua001

New member
just a little side note, if other shooters(yes I just found your previous thread) are also having the same low and left issues with the gun, at the same time, it might actually be a mechanical issue. it could be issues with the barrel-bullet ratio. a jagged edge on rifling near the muzzle could grab and pull a larger, tighter bullet towards one direction when that slight jagedness could be just slight enough to not catch with a smaller bullet. Ammo companies can vary by thousandths of an inch in diameter. that could be why some days you shoot dead on and others you shoot low left. it could also be a dent in your barrel or even a rattle in your barrel, though those are less likely. hope this helps
 

TunnelRat

New member
As a note:

It is not, as far as I can tell, actually a mechanical problem, unless you count the mechanics of my body.

I have to concentrate to shoot this weapon far more than any other handgun. As others have mentioned it is very hard to tell when it breaks and resets. A friend recently bought a used one with a custom trigger job and the difference is night and day.

I will be getting an apex DCAEK kit next month, along with the RAM, and will report on my experience.
 

Uncle Malice

New member
I will be getting an apex DCAEK kit next month, along with the RAM, and will report on my experience.

Very much looking forward to your review, TunnelRat. I think this kit will completely change the way you view the gun. It certainly did for me. :)
 

MLeake

New member
Installation report on Apex DCAEK

Well, got home a couple days ago; the Apex kits were waiting for me.

Looked at the Apex videos for installation, thinking it would be as easy as was the J-frame installation. However, the videos for the M&P start with the striker block already removed from the frame - no step-by-step for how to do that. Uh oh....

Decided to call a friend who does a lot of tinkering and hobby gunsmithing, not to mention tool-making. He said to come on over, and we could do the DCAEK installs and also put on the Heinie Straight 8 sights I'd ordered.

Did I mention he has a lot of tools, and that he designs tools?

So he has a plastic disc he's made, with holes of varying sizes in it. He uses this for roll pin removal. He also has punches of varying sizes, and one punch with a rounded contour which he designed and had made specifically for counter-sinking roll pins in the M&P series (although it works on roll pins in other guns as well). He had the striker blocks out of my pistols in seconds.

Interestingly, my 45c had the old style block, with a small spring; my 45 F/S had the new style, with the larger spring. The larger spring is much easier to reinstall/replace than the smaller spring. If you buy the DCAEK, this is why the one packet has two springs, but says to use only one: Use the spring that matches the original in size.

Ensure you have a clean work area, because it's easy to launch the springs - especially the little ones. Finding them amidst clutter can pose a challenge.

We changed the springs in the striker blocks, and changed the plungers. I was amused to see that Apex provides a Talon Tactical tool for changing the plunger without losing the disc that holds it in place (my buddy who was helping me owns Talon Tactical, and designed that tool himself...). In order to change the plunger, the rear sight has to be removed. This tool slides into the dovetail; by moving it in as the rear sight is coming out, positive tension is kept on the disc.

The spring in the striker block adds a pound or two of tension; the new plunger removes about a pound and a half.

We opted not to pull the trigger blocks, and change out spring and sear. The DCAEK spring/sear add a pound or so to overall tension. My pistols measured between 4.75 and 5.00lbs on the 45c, and 5.25lbs on the 45 F/S, so we decided to leave well enough alone. (There are apparently five alignment points that must mate perfectly to reinsert the trigger block, and I didn't see any real gain in adding a pound or so of pressure to offset the pain of playing with removing and reinstalling the trigger block.)

While we were at it, we removed the thumb safety from the 45c. That took perhaps fifteen seconds.

The Heinie sights took the longest. Apparently they are cast, not machined. The rear sights were pretty loose in the dovetails; we used blue loc-tite to anchor them. I'll do some test shooting tomorrow. We suspect there are good odds we might need to do a small spot-weld job to anchor them, but we'll see.... The front sights were the big time-consumers. They were cast both deep, vertically, and long, fore and aft, for the dovetails. Therefore, they had to be filed, both vertically and along the leading edges, in order to be forced into place.

Speaking of forcing into place, my buddy had a pair of thick and thin teflon rods, which he bought from Spruce Aircraft, a model aircraft firm. He uses them as punches - they won't damage metal unless you really do something drastic. He got the front sights started into the dovetails using the teflon punches. Once they were established into the grooves, he switched to another tool he'd machined - this one is a piece of aluminum, cut to match the dovetail, with a squared end. It allows more forceful hammering, but the aluminum will bend before it damages the slide.

We finally got the front sights installed...

At which point he took out a jar of Optho Blue compound, and swabbed some onto both slides. This step removed the smears of aluminum from on and around the dovetails. A gunsmith taught him that trick years ago, and it works.

Total time involved: 1 hour.
Total tools involved:

Plastic disc with holes for removing roll pins.
Magnetized metal punch for removing small parts and springs.
Non-magnetized metal punch.
Rounded metal punch for counter-sinking roll pins.
Needle-nose pliers.
Teflon punches.
Small ball peen hammer.
Talon Tactical plunger tool.
Allen wrench for loosening rear sight screw.
Aluminum sight punch.
Small flat-head screwdriver (used for prying up striker block after roll pin removal).
Surefire light (for finding small parts we launched under the workbench).
Loc-tite.
Lubricant for new parts.

Accomplished: 4.75-5.00lb trigger on compact, 5.25lb trigger on full-size; Heinie Straight 8's on both pistols.

Not bad for an hour, but then again I had somebody who knew what he was doing.

Now I get to try them out tomorrow, and see how they shoot - and if the blue loc-tite was enough to hold the Heinie rear sights in place, or if we need to do the small spot-welding jobs.

Edit: Just in case I wasn't clear enough - the J-frame kit is easy to install, just using the Apex online video and a few common tools. However, the M&P DCAEK kit requires several tools that many of us might not have, and a pretty decent working knowledge of M&P internals. While I do recommend the DCAEK kit, I also recommend either having a gunsmith do the installation, or else having a skilled buddy help out with it - unless you are one of those people with a solid working knowledge of M&P internals, and a pretty good collection of tools.
 
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C0untZer0

Moderator
The APEX thing is like the Glocks.

People think the Glocks are cheap - they are if you can tolerate their horrible trigger.

But those trigger kits are the hidden cost of getting a Glock or an M&P.

It makes me wonder too - why didn't Glock put a better trigger in their pistols from the git go?
 

MLeake

New member
Test-fired the M&P's today.

Ammo: Georgia Arms 185gr FMJ (because my normal carry load for .45 is 185gr Cor-Bon DPX; similar POI/POA).

Range: 15yds for torso, 7 yds for head.

Target: IDPA standard.

Rate of Fire: A bit over 1 round per second. 120 rounds to torso, then 25 rounds to head.

M&P45 full-size:
S%252526W%252520M%252526P45%252520full%252520size%252520with%252520Apex.JPG


M&P45c:
S%252526W%252520M%252526P45c%252520with%252520Apex.JPG


Note1: The frame plugs for the compact have not arrived yet; I'll have to call S&W Parts on Monday and verify they've been sent. (Removed the thumb safety, as noted in previous post.)

Note2: The guns will do better, I'm sure; I haven't shot since May, as I've been out of the country, and I still need to shake off the rust. Also, this was my first time shooting either pistol. All in all, I'm quite happy with them

Note3: Despite my concerns, the Heinie rear sights showed no tendency to drift. Either they weren't quite as loose as they'd seemed in the dovetails, or the blue loc-tite we applied really did its job. Also, this was my first time using Straight 8's - and I really, really like them. Very easy to acquire quickly.

Edit2: Thought I'd add a pic of my three Apex Smiths in one frame.

S%252526W%252520Apex%252520Trio.JPG


The 442 is sporting some new Altamont grips. I really like those, too.
 

Roland Thunder

New member
Hmmmmm

I nearly had my mind made up that I was going to trade my Glock 23 (gen4) in on an M&P 45c. Now I am hearing all this talk about the trigger on the M&P45c not being so good out of the box and the need to do a trigger job on it. So, now I am not so sure.

Would love to hear from someone who has both guns.
 

TunnelRat

New member
The thread that won't die. I think it's because a number of people are in the same boat, or are at least considering some kind of trigger kit.

As a note my Apex DCAEK and RAM is in the mail and should be here by Friday. I am still debating doing it myself or bringing to a smith (though my smith seems rather unenthusiastic). Either way I hope to everything installed in a week or less.

-TR
 

Smaug

New member
I had the same issue with Glocks. Didn't want to have to "train out of it", so I sold it.

I prefer a traditional DA/SA gun. Not as crisp of a break as a 1911, but I'm used to it and so I shoot it better than a 1911.

I also owned a Walther P99. That one is a LOT easier to shoot well than a Glock. (and I suspect M&P) It has a clean break all the way at the back of the trigger stroke. Very predictable. For a striker gun at least. ;)
 

MLeake

New member
TunnelRat, please see my post #25. I really like the DCAEK kit; however, it would have been beyond my ability (both skills and available tools) to install it on my own.

Having assisted my friend while he did my two pistols, I could probably do the job, now, but I'd still need to acquire additional punches, plus some teflon and aluminum rods for removal of the rear sight (both my pistols came with sights that seemed to have been put into the dovetails with hydraulic devices).
 

TunnelRat

New member
@ MLeake
I did see your post, and it pretty much convinced me not to do it myself. I do have a friend of a friend that could probably do it, but I know I couldn't. Quite simply I don't have a good work environment where if I dropped something I would be able to find it. Combine that with my rather horrible luck and it would be a recipe for disaster. Now I just need to see if my smith will do it.
 

Uncle Malice

New member
I'm really surprise at how frustrating you found the DCAEK installation. I did mine at the kitchen table with a roll of masking tape, a small ball peen hammer, a single punch (Glock tool), one small allen wrench for the rear sight, and a leatherman tool(used pliers and knife blade for assistance positioning the sear spring).

It just seemed very straightforward to me.... *shrug*
 

excelerater

Moderator
M&P even w APEX is not as good as my SIG trigger out of the box
Spending 550 bucks or so for an M&P and dropping 100.00 on a trigger
for a gun that wont sell for more than 450 when its time to dump it
seems silly to me.....That was 100% my experience with my M&P....

A Glocks stock trigger is still better than an M&P and a glock wont tank
when it comes time to sell it off . . Not a fan of M&P whatsoever but the APEX guys and thier kit is very simple and easy to install,good people


.02
 

TBT

New member
I've found the exact opposite. The trigger on my old SIGP226 couldn't touch the M&P with the Apex goodies.

"Dumping" a perfectly excellent gun has never been part of my plans so I can't comment on that end.
 
Confirmed!

In my case my M&P Pro Series loose front sight was replaced, but I had no confidence in it when it came back so it was sold off. Hopefully the next user has better luck with it than I did. I did find this item interesting: I was recently watching one of the TV gun programs where the M&P Pro Series was featured as a project to make it a better shooter. It was neat to see the hits on the white steel plates to be at six o'clock. Gun was hitting the bottom of the plates- just like it did when I shot mine and when my dad shot mine. In a different thread and post, I wrote about hitting too low. Was sort of neat to see the same exact thing on the TV show.
 

MLeake

New member
Uncle Malice, the rear sights on both my pistols required a pretty good amount of force to break loose from the dovetails - that was the single biggest issue.

The other problem, for me, was that unlike the J-frame video, which started with removal of the side plate and went step by step from that point, the DCAEK video showed removal of the slide, but then skipped removal of the striker block entirely and resumed with Randy Lee holding the already removed striker block.

As it turned out, that part comes out easily, with one punched roll pin, and some prying with a flathead screwdriver. However, the video didn't show how to do that, and the factory literature that comes with the gun doesn't show how to do that, either.

I suppose I could have done some searches for detail stripping, but as that had not been necessary for the J-frame kit, I hadn't expected it would be necessary for the DCAEK.

Otherwise, you are correct, there's nothing that hard about it, technically speaking. There are several parts that would like to fly out under spring pressure, if one isn't careful, and so having a good workbench and clear work area is a huge plus.

But even if not technically complex, removing my rear sight took a lot more brute force than I'd have personally been comfortable applying, at my experience level working on this kind of thing (which is limited).
 

TunnelRat

New member
@ Uncle
I believe you but trust me when I say I have pretty horrible luck. I can see me losing something easy.

@Steel
I will let you know how it goes. As a note I picked up some trijjicon night sights recently and in a review someone noted the front sight is shorter than the stock front sight. Maybe the factory fronts are too tall?
 
Too Tall?

Yeah that was one of my questions about my gun. I wondered if the front sight containing the fiber optic rod was too tall. There was no such thing as holding a conventional sight alignment.
 

balance

New member
I'm curious if any of you guys with an aftermarket kit installed in your M&P have tried the Walther PPQ. I've heard people proclaim that both of these pistols have the best triggers of any polymer pistols, and I'd like to hear your preferance from those of you who have tried both.
 
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