M&P 45 behaving real low down

Never seen this before in a 45 acp? Son just purchased his first pistol. A new S&W M&P in 45 acp. An afternoon spent at the range and I am stumped? At 50-ft. this pistol hits consistently two feet low of target and all over the place as well. In all my years of shooting I've never seen a weapon target this bad out of the box. We used a medium charged hard ball type of ammo (w/ 230gr. winchester bullets) for that outing. I shoot the same ammo out of my Pre-National Match 1911 Cup and it targets very well for me.-- I told my son "take this pistol back to the dealer he purchased it from!!."--But, son wants try a reasonable {soft ball} load w/ cast bullets around 185-200gr. first. It didn't make any difference who shot it. As a few guys at the range tried it out too. In all cases they got the same results.>Shooting horribly low with factory sights. Got any ideas what is going on with this S&W product?
 

jeepman4804

New member
First, try some factory ammunition... Then if it is still not right send it to S&W or take it back to where you bought it. The MP45's are arguably the most accurate weapon of the M&P line up. Sounds to me like something is wrong with it. My 45FS and 45C are both crazy accurate, to the point of being almost boring to shoot.
 

TunnelRat

New member
I find the M&P trigger, out of box for me at least, sucks badly. I had the same issue. It wasn't the gun in the end, it was me. The trigger has a non-existent break point and can be very heavy. I found I shot low with it on many occasions, even out to only 21-30 feet (maybe 6 inches low at that point?). My advice is try it some more. After more and more practice I got over it. It was hard to believe at first because I didn't have that problem with any other handgun I owned, but the M&P can be a strange beast. I had to train with it more than anything I owned before and since.

If you still have issues, send it in. Part of the reason for buying a S&W is the warranty. Call them up and they'll send you a pre-paid shipping label and take care of the whole thing. Would be a good idea to include a target with it too and mention the load you're shooting. It's a lifetime warranty.

If it was his first session too, 50 feet is a bit far for testing a new gun, IMO. I am sure your son is a fine shot, but like I said I personally believe there is a strong learning curve with it.
 

tahunua001

New member
I've had similar situations with a few M&Ps I've tried at the range. as someone has already stated, it's the triggers. some shooters are able to practice their way through it, others never overcome it and either end up buying an aftermarket trigger kit for it or end up selling it. if it's just a range toy I would probably try few heavy days at the range. if it's a service piece I would go the faster route and either spend the extra $80 to drop in a new trigger or sell the pistol for a loss and get one that I can actually shoot.
 
come on guys. this is the 5th such post we have had on this same issue within a week. have one of the range officers shoot it for you. when he puts it right in the bullseye, you will know it's just you. you aren't used to the trigger. you are jerking. if you don't believe me, put a cheap laser on it, point it at the target and watch the laser move right to your grouping as you pull the trigger.
 

jeepman4804

New member
Don't blame the trigger for bad essentials. I shot mine just as good out of the box as I do with Apex parts. If the OP and son are experienced shooters and multiple shooters are having the same problem, my money is still on a gun problem. Just because mine have all been flawless does not mean a bad barrel didn't get out.
 

carguychris

New member
TunnelRat:
It wasn't the gun in the end, it was me. The trigger has a non-existent break point and can be very heavy. I found I shot low with it on many occasions... After more and more practice I got over it. It was hard to believe at first because I didn't have that problem with any other handgun I owned, but the M&P can be a strange beast.
loose_holster_dan:
you aren't used to the trigger. you are jerking.
+1 on all of this. FWIW when I first got my M&P9, I was consistently grouping low and slightly to the right, and/or stringing shots out vertically, often on the same target.

Besides the break point, I find the M&P's reset to be, shall we say, weird. It has somewhat of a spongy feeling to it and it's difficult to feel the exact reset point like with most traditional DA/SA automatics.

Here's my advice.
  • I found that the key to good shots with the M&P is to think "pressure"- IOW don't try to feel for a break point or "stage" the trigger. Think about applying more pressure to make the shot, releasing that pressure during reset, and reapplying the pressure for the next shot. Some longtime handgun shooters are probably thinking "well, that's what you're supposed to do anyway", but IMHO what many people actually do when shooting most pistols is feel for the break point and then apply pressure. The trick with the M&P is don't think about the break point. IMHO if you feel for a break point with this gun, you will jerk the trigger, and you will just keep jerking it (+1 dan).
  • Pay close attention to this one: Wait until you put at least 500-1,000rds through the pistol before you listen to anybody who tells you to put Apex Tactical parts in it and/or do some sort of garage "trigger job". The factory M&P trigger gets crisper and lighter with use. I am NOT knocking Apex Tactical; their stuff is very good. The point is to try and learn the factory trigger first. It IS possible to shoot a box-stock M&P extremely well.
 

fastbolt

New member
My own '08 production M&P 45, as well as others I've handled and fired (belonging to other instructors), have exhibited excellent accuracy with a variety of factory hollowpoint duty loads.

Yes, the triggers can be heavy at first. The .45's were running 7lbs with a +/- 2lb tolerance considered acceptable. (The larger sear plungers and their heavier springs being sued in the newer production guns might bump that up just a bit, though.)

I've found the trigger break to be nicely consistent and predictable, but I shoot a fair amount as a firearms instructor using a variety of handguns.

The trigger recovery is good, and the trigger reset is subtle and doesn't distract during slow, deliberate target shooting. FWIW, I don't "shoot to trigger reset", as I feel that creates the bad habit of keeping a finger on the trigger between intentional shots. I've seen a fair number of folks who like to try and only release triggers to the sear reset point after an intentional shot, subsequently "rock" their triggers during recoil and fire unintentional shots. :eek: Not a good thing when tension, stress and excitement are occurring. Also, since I shoot a number of handgun platforms, trigger/sear "reset" can be a rather variable thing among different designs, and I don't want to use a technique which is more or less limited to one specific gun. Just me.

Anyway, my M&P 45 was at the heavy end of the range when new, but that didn't prevent me from experiencing excellent practical accuracy right away.

I've fired some after the Apex parts were installed. Okay. Made their new guns feel like mine did after I'd fired it a couple of thousand rounds. I didn't rush out and order them for my own pair of M&P's.

There's no way to know how familiar and skilled any particular shooter might be with any particular pistol platform, not unless you're able to observe them on the firing line.

Using handloaded ammunition also introduces an unknown influence to the circumstances. (I can say this, as I was an avid handloader for many years, and I've also seen any number of problems occur with handloads used by folks during range sessions/quals over the years. Yes, I know everyone thinks that their handloads are always perfect and trouble-free. ;) ) I like to use good quality factory ammo when trying to diagnose shooter and/or gun "problems".

Do you have some good quality Dummy rounds that your son can use? The reason I ask is that I've observed over the years that few folks realize when they're anticipating trigger break & recoil, and depressing the muzzle. Slipping a couple of Dummy rounds into a mag load can often make the point rather apparent, allowing a shooter to see the slide & muzzle jerk downward (where they generally can't realize it during live-fire).

As an instructor, I've often observed that day in & day out, it's generally not the gun, but the shooter.

Just my thoughts.
 
Well after reading all your helpful letters guys. I have a question? Why would 5 shooters all encounter the same situation from one firearm? One or possibly two of the five were active peace officers. I'm sure those guys working for the sheriffs department have encounter a few troubled weapons here and there during their careers and figured them out.> Not this time!!--And your right. The M&P did have a unusual hard trigger pull. I don't expect the son will accept the fact He has to get use to shooting a pistol that requires a 1000 round break-in period before He and his pistol can hit a 5" target 7-10 yards away. I'm sure He won't tolerate that. No one should!! I'm going to advise him to have his local S&W dealer send it back to S&W manufacturing tagged as a [product complaint.] We'll let the pro's at S&W figure this out. If indeed its returned in the same condition as it was sent out. He'll sell it some how?
 

TunnelRat

New member
Well after reading all your helpful letters guys. I have a question? Why would 5 shooters all encounter the same situation from one firearm? One or possibly two of the five were active peace officers. I'm sure those guys working for the sheriffs department have encounter a few troubled weapons here and there during their careers and figured them out.> Not this time!!--And your right. The M&P did have a unusual hard trigger pull. I don't expect the son will accept the fact He has to get use to shooting a pistol that requires a 1000 round break-in period before He and his pistol can hit a 5" target 7-10 yards away. I'm sure He won't tolerate that. No one should!! I'm going to advise him to have his local S&W dealer send it back to S&W manufacturing tagged as a [product complaint.] We'll let the pro's at S&W figure this out. If indeed its returned in the same condition as it was sent out. He'll sell it some how?

Have those people used/fired M&Ps before? Because if they haven't then I don't really see what that proves, other than people that are unfamiliar with what can be a difficult gun can have trouble with it.

You can send it back. Sounds like you kind of tossed in the towel early and are just blaming it on the manufacturer. But hey, guess what, it's your money do what you want with it.
 

HKGuns

New member
Come on guys, there isn't ANYTHING "that" different about an M&P trigger that would cause this type of shooting across 5 shooters.

I'm surprised the OP isn't more offended than he appears to be at the suggestion.

I own a number of different pistols (including an M&P), all with different triggers and have no issues putting bullets in the black with any of them. Maybe I'm just "special" but I really don't think so......

OP, I think there is an issue with your pistol.
 

TunnelRat

New member
Come on guys, there isn't ANYTHING "that" different about an M&P trigger that would cause this type of shooting across 5 shooters.

I'm surprised the OP isn't more offended than he appears to be at the suggestion.

I own a number of different pistols (including an M&P), all with different triggers and have no issues putting bullets in the black with any of them. Maybe I'm just "special" but I really don't think so......

OP, I think there is an issue with your pistol.

Maybe you're right, maybe you're not :D. The beauty of a forum is that people are entitled to their opinions. You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want, and at the end of the day we'll all be happy.
 
you can try to send it back to s&w. they will tell you the same thing sig told me - shooting low is the most common complaint the customer service line gets. 99.99% is shooter error.
 

B.N.Real

New member
Like Don H said,shoot it from a rest first -at seven yards.

See what grouping you are getting from a solid supported shooting position with the sights aligned exactly the same everytime.

Yea,seven yards is close but you want a baseline to go from.

Then you move it out to ten then to fifteen and then to twenty five.

Also have three different brands and or weights of ammo to shoot.

If it groups consistent with one weight of bullet or one brand of round,you simply have a picky handgun.

If the grouping is off to one dierection but still consistent,you just move the sights.

If it's still shooting way out of acceptable bounds or very inconsistent groups,you might have a gun that got through quality checks undiscovered.

As others have said,the M&P trigger is most times the very first part of a M&P that gets changed to some of the excellent trigger kits availible.

A sticky or gritty trigger can make your groups go all over the place.

Some M&P's are known for this but as the gun gets shot,the triggers are also known to smooth out nicely.
 

IMightBeWrong

New member
Everybody is wrong. It's because the .45 is a practically pre-historic round that's heavy and slow and can barely travel 50 feet to begin with. Shoulda got a nice new fangled round of awesomeness like the evolved 9mm hollowpoints we have now or a .40...

<.< Couldn't resist a little fun. Probably trigger slap, also possibly a sight issue. Are you covering the target with the front sight or placing it on top of the sight like it's a table?
 
Well it appears from most of the posts "It's a shooters problem."--We'll see what happens in the near future if S&W is willing to take a second look at one of their products. I personally think it shouldn't take between 500-1000 rounds to get this weapon to smooth itself out in order for its owner to bulls-eye 5" targets 10 yards away. Wouldn't one think S&W Quality Control would have seen to it that someone be designated in their plant to clean up trigger mechanisms before distribution? --But, like so many business these days. Hurry up and just get the product out the door to the consumers is Priority #1 [irregardless of any questionable design flaws.] I can only hope S&W doesn't renege on their lifetime warranty by making excuses not to service my sons pistol. If nothings done? --The son will probably sell it to a stranger. -- And fellows I'm sorry to say "you can bet the farm he'll never, ever, purchase another handgun made here in America." And doing just that!! is my sons choice and his idea of >Quality Control.< --On the other hand. My Thanks, to all those who took time out of their busy day to post their suggestions and opinions. We appreciated all your input. SSMcG & son
 

TunnelRat

New member
Hurry up and just get the product out the door to the consumers is Priority #1 [irregardless of any questionable design flaws.]

Again, people being unfamiliar with a gun is a design flaw?:confused: Do what you want with the gun, but when you start making stuff up give it a rest please.
 
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