Low-power 9x19 data

Z

Zak Smith

New member
My girlfriend has a hard-time shooting factory-power 9x19, even in a full-size steel pistol (CZ-75B-SA). Normally her "mags to hand fatigue" is about two. So I decided to load up some "low power" 9mm, with what I had on hand: 115gr XTP, and VV-3N37.

A faster powder would probably be a better choice - any suggestions?

Code: 
115gr Hornady XTP, 1.100" OAL, Various brass, VV-3N37

3.5gr   623.5 (35.8),  72 PF, 0.741 FRE - fail to eject 100%
4.0gr   712.4 (42.2),  82 PF, 0.967 FRE - fail to eject  80%
4.0gr   760.0 (26.5),  87 PF, 1.101 FRE - shot later, ran okay, 2" ejection
4.5gr   859.5 (46.3),  99 PF, 1.409 FRE - ran okay, 10" ejection
5.0gr  1012.0 (36.0), 116 PF, 1.953 FRE - ran okay, 3-5' ejection

Comments:

The lightest load that didn't fail-to-eject was the second 4.0gr group, a 114gr at 760 fps. If we assume that slide velocity comes from conservation of momentum: bullet vs. slide, and the frame remains stationary, then the minimum non-jamming power factor (PF) is 87.

The 4.5gr (859 fps) was the lightest one that *never* jammed, so I'm going with that. It has a PF of 99.

What if I replace the 115gr XTP with a 124gr XTP or Lead RN ? If I assume that the same energy is imparted to the bullet (same charge), then 115 @ 859 -> 124 @ 827.

The 124 @ 827 would have a 102 PF, well over the jam-free operation floor.

These were all shot with the "stock" CZ-75B-SA spring, which is around 13 or 14 lbs. I normally shoot "factory" and "full-power" 9x19 in this pistol with the Wolff 16lb spring.

Stay safe,
Zak
 
C

Cee-Zed

Moderator
My limited experience in this area suggests two things:
1) Faster powders would be better.
2) Accuracy is going to be relatively poor in the CZ 75B SA. (Mine likes relatively hot loads.)

I was looking at some lighter loads from the Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook, and Stephen's suggestion is a good one. Similar weights (3.6gr-4.0gr) of Red Dot and PB also look promising. Red Dot is a real sweetheart in light .38 Special loads (zero felt recoil for me).
 
C

Chemistry

New member
The Vihtavuori powders N340 and 3N37 have given me excellent velocities, while still having less perceived recoil than just about anything else out there. I know that when I load a 124 grain FMJ cartridge to 1200 fps with N340 versus Alliant Power Pistol, that the Power Pistol definitely has a greater felt recoil, even though the chronograph shows both the Power Pistol and N340 loads to be virtually the same velocity.

Vihtavuori 3N37, IMHO, is one of the the best propellant powders for full power 9 mm loads, but it seems to need the higher pressures for good performance.

If you want to experiment more with downloading, you may want to try Vihtavuori N340 instead.

This is a load that I make when I transition people from .22's to a stronger caliber:

115 grain Rainier's TCJ-RN bullet (or Berry's or West Coast)
5.0 grains VV N340 (5.6 grains max)
Any standard small pistol primer
COAL = 1.145"
Crimp to 0.378-0.379" with Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die

This is a very soft-shooting load that cycles my Glock 17 reliably. I realize that it's probably going to have a higher velocity than your reduced 3N37 loads, but the report is so soft and there is no muzzle flash, that even people with lesser hand strength / endurance can handle 50 rounds of this load with no problems.

This may sound odd, but could your girlfriend's hand fatigue be due to the fact that she has to heft a full sized all-steel pistol?
 
Z

Zak Smith

New member
Chemistry, thanks for the powder suggestion. Have you chrono'd the 5.0gr VV-N340 load?

I use 3N37 in my "full power" reloads in 9x19, and it works great.

With these low-power loads, though, there are unburned powder grains - it's clear low pressure isn't its forte.

This may sound odd, but could your girlfriend's hand fatigue be due to the fact that she has to heft a full sized all-steel pistol?
Click to expand...

She's tried a Glock 19, a Makarov, a BHP, and a Browning .22 pistol. The fatigue seems directly proportional to the perceived recoil, e.g. with the same ammo, the Glock is "worse" than the CZ, and the Makarov with its less-powerful round is "worse" than the CZ in 9x19.

So given that the small direct blowback pistols in 9Mak and 9x18 are going to recoil similarly to the Mak, I though it'd work out better to shoot a heavier (ie, normal size) delayed-blowback 9x19 gun with low power rounds.

-z
 
J

Jim Watson

New member
I cut back 9mm loads for a lady. Whatever the powder, the most I could reduce the load and get reliable function of a P225 was 12%. Which is pretty close to what Chemistry loads. I did not chronograph them, all I wanted was the lightest felt recoil.
 
Q

Quantrill

New member
9mm light loads

I have been using 3.7gr 700X for ages and am happy with it. Also pretty accurate. I use 124gr LRN bullet cast by myself with a Lee mold. I use this in a S&W #59 and a 1915 DWM German Luger. Quantrill
 
N

nyetter

New member
Clays is the answer. I tried a load, off the top of my head I think it was 3.6gr Clays under a Rainier 115gr HP. Cycled a Beretta Brigadier just fine, grouped great (only tested at 7yds though), and felt almost like a rimfire.
 
J

john kilgore

New member
Clays and 700X work well if weighed or hand measured, but are inconsitent if loaded on progressive machines (very large flake size). The best I've found is Bullseye, with nothing else coming close for accuracy/consistency with cast bullets. W231 gives a lot of unburned powder and may cause malfunctions loaded at low pressures and powder charge weights are 10-15% greater (higher cost).AA#2 is much the same.
My S&W's will function with a load as low as 3.3gr of Bullseye and a 122gr TC cast bullet- recoil is least that will function pistol. Best accuracy is with 3.5-3.7gr. The velocities of this is 920fps +/- @ 3.3, and about 1,000fps +/- at 3.6gr.
The Speer manual gives some real good lead bullet data with minimums and maximums. Maximums are not for pressure but for leading and accuracy considerations.
VitaVouri Oy -N310 may be a good one to try, -I have no experience with it though.
 
Q

Quantrill

New member
700X

John,
I have often heard the story that 700X would not feed through progressive machines. While some people may have that problem, I have found that generally 700X stays within plus or minus .1 grain in the Star Universal, Dillon 450B, Dillon 550, Lyman turret and the Mec 650. In fact, when the Star was rebuilt a few years back, I had it specifically set-up for a load of 2.5gr 700X for .38spec wadcutters. Just my experience in reloading over 30 some years. Quantrill
 
B

Bompa

New member
For about $8. you can get a lighter spring,try a 10lb or so,and
you will have a whole new area to try.. Try a fast powder in small amounts till you get what is comfortable..Also try a heavier bullet
at a low velocity.. Some say that combination makes a softer shooting load..
 
C

Cee-Zed

Moderator
You know, Bompa, I ALMOST suggested that, but I am getting a reputation for being "spring happy." ;-)

Side note: I would not waste VihtaVouri on downloaded 9mm. There are a lot cheaper super-fast powders out there. Just my $0.02...
 
Z

Zak Smith

New member
Yeah, I know I can get a softer spring and lower the "jam free" PF floor.

Unless anybody here has tried VV-N310 for this purpose, I'll probably just go ahead and buy some Bullseye.

WESHOOT2, why only use jacketed bullets with Bullseye?

thanks
Zak
 
T

taco

New member
My experience with loading 9mm jacked ammo indicates that they work (in terms of accuracy) much better at higher velocity. Why not try loading cast bullets? They usually work pretty well at lower velocities.
 
W

WESHOOT2

New member
BECAUSE I SAID SO

Its 'peaky hot butt-slap' start-up detrimentally affects the bullet base and accuracy.

Your results may vary.
 
J

john kilgore

New member
QUANTRILL,

Yes, I too generally get about the same variation with most lots I've tried, but... and a significant but, In loading for competition shooting I've occasionally had a "light" round using -700X some, and more so with Clays, and find the one in 300rds to be unacceptable when it can cost me $$$ in a match. Had a round hit the lower "0" area on a B-27 at 50yd line in the 1992 Ga. state championship and cost me the match- I was using some 700x as I had run out of Bullseye and Win231. Just one in 300 is too many.
Most Bullseye and Win231 charges are too close to measure the difference with my ancient Hornady/Pacific scale.

A good friend of mine is primarily a Shotgun shooter (an international class competitor w/4 gun and Sporting Clays) and he has used a lot of both 700X and Clays in his .45's as he buys the stuff in 32lb quantities. He's something of a commedian at the range due to his squibs. He jokes and says; "what can you say, its practically "free" ammo". He rarely has a "stuck" bullet from his squibs, but keeps a wood dowel and hammer close by. He uses mostly Clays @ 3.7gr, at least when he throws that much over a 200gr cast SWC.
But, he's not particularily careful with his center fire loads.

He says that with the larger cavities of the Shotshell measures these powders don't present a problem, only with the smaller pistol cavities. So, personal observations probably depend on the quantity of powder your throwing. The 3.7 is larger than I've used as the loads I used in .38 Spl was 2.5 and 2.8gr.
I've found the Lee "Micro-disc" does better with the courser powders due to the larger diameter openings.
 
S

shu

New member
Using
Rainier 124gr plated flat point
AA#5 powder
cci500 primers
the lowest load that would reliably cycle my Beretta 92fs was 5.2gr of AA#5. Exit velocity about 900fps.
 
Z

Zak Smith

New member
Bullseye data

I ran an experiment with Bullseye today. Here's the report:

Code: 
11-2-2002, 30F, sunny-ish
Control .22LR in Browning:     1033 fps (23)
        S&B 115gr in Glock 19: 1113 fps (19)

OAL is 1.100" +/- 0.005

All following numbers in CZ-75B-SA (9x19)

4.5gr VV-3N37, 115gr XTP: 881 fps (22)  PF 101   FRE 1.48
4.5gr VV-3N37, 124gr XTP: 912 fps (23)  PF 113   FRE 1.84
4.5gr VV-3N37, 124gr LRN: 960 fps (17)  PF 119   FRE 2.04
   (LRN = Laser-Cast lead-round nose)

Alliant Bullseye, using 115gr XTP:
 2.5gr  694 fps (42)  PF  80   FRE 0.92  (JAMS!)
 2.7gr  745 fps (20)  PF  86   FRE 1.06  (JAMS!)
 2.9gr  826 fps (36)  PF  95   FRE 1.30
 3.1gr  848 fps (38)  PF  98   FRE 1.37
 3.3gr  883 fps (31)  PF 102   FRE 1.49 
 3.5gr  980 fps (25)  PF 113   FRE 1.83
 3.7gr 1018 fps (29)  PF 117   FRE 1.98

model: V(m) = 267.7 * m + 26.5, correlation = 0.990.
I had trouble getting my powder measure (RCBS) to throw consistently with these charges of Bullseye. I'm going to try some VV-N320 next. Also, I'm going to change from XTP's to the much cheaper West Coast copper-plated 115gr bullets.

-z
 
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