Loose arbor, 1851 Navy

madcratebuilder

New member
Just wondering,
With a loose arbor, and an inexpensive revolver. Has anyone given silver solder a try? It should be much better than locktite, although the next time it might be scrap, so big deal part it out.
Just wondering.

There are some new low temp (about 500*) silver solders on the market. It would be worth a try, and like you said if it does not work your not out much.

I think most frame to arbor problems in the brass frame guns is due to poor fit between the arbor and barrel lug. People drive the wedge in with to much force, pulling the arbor from the frame.

Well, at least until the battery dies.
:D:D:D
 
to GMATOV: no offense intended, there's a method to my madness- reasons I'm stating the information previously:

#1 it's true- none of this is fabricated- here's yet another guy with a loose arbor on a Italian-made Colt repro- these guns literally fall apart under heavy shooting, unless the arbor is welded into the frame.

#2, get the facts out there, the public becomes informed, they start demanding better guns, and the mfrs. will respond with the proper heat treated steels in the guns

#3, if you read my posts and quotes, this same information is being printed in BP C-B books, I'm merely quoting it- or I'm stating my own personal experience- why bury your head in the sand and be in denial ?

#4- the guns are OVERPRICED for something that is not even heat treated, and only case hardened. They're selling on looks, to the uninformed and newbie shooters, rather than using reliability and quality as a selling point

#5 the mfrs. and vendors read these forums- what is discussed here, affects future product offerings. Right now they're probably thinking "crap, they're on to us".

these Italian mfrs. have to get with the program and ante up- we're getting sick of buying soft steel and brass junkers- for $300-$500 we deserve hardened steel guns that last- for cripes sake, I bought a collectible Browning Auto-5 shotgun for only $500 in the local newspaper ads. That's the kind of value I want for my money.
 
Last edited:

Hawg

New member
#2, get the facts out there, the public becomes informed, they start demanding better guns, and the mfrs. will respond with the proper heat treated steels in the guns

If they're so crappy why are there 40 year old Italian replicas that are still going strong after thousands of rounds, yes I have one that's been through more crap than an original war gun ever thought about going through.

the guns are OVERPRICED for something that is not even heat treated, and only case hardened.

I think the prices are very reasonable and just what do you think case hardening is? FYI all case hardening including Colt's is in your own words soft as mush on the inside.
 

Indian Outlaw

New member
Captain,

Uberti switched from cast frames to forged frames in 2007 for their Remingtons, and so they are interested in improving things. Compared to the 2006 model I purchased (and soon sold), the screws on my 2009 gun are harder, the lines sharper, the action smoother. I removed a small ding from my new gun's backstrap with emery paper last week, and found the steel adequately hard. I've also removed dings from Smith & Wesson's stainless, which was shockingly soft in comparison.

The Uberti cylinder is a bit soft but is fine for BP.

I can't comment on the Colts 'cause I don't buy them. Nor can I comment on Piettas (for the same reason).
 
Last edited:

AdmiralB

New member
All Uberti C&B revolvers, at least from 2007 and beyond, have forged frames except for the stainless steel Remingtons.
 

gmatov

Moderator
MCB,

Those "lo-temp" "silver solders" are "silver bearing", any where from .7% to 3 % silver. or they are "lead free" solders, 99.3 % Tin and .7 % copper. Either way, they would have the non-deformation of lead, just a tiny bit harder.

Silver solder would probably help. You would have to unscrew the arbor, clean the threads, inside and out, flux both, screw back in in the proper orientation, heat over 1000 Deg for most alloys. I think, too, that you CAN unsolder it, do it over.

As to the shooters driving the wedge in too tight because the arbor is not bottomed out, I don't think so. It only takes a little bit too much force to lock up the cylinder. More likely those WITH a bottomed arbor will bang it in too hard. Jammed.

If you have to hammer it out with more force than a gentle tap from a loaded spare cylinder, you are making it too tight. My own, if I can't thumb it out at first, I smack the muzzle with the heel of my hand. Usually looses it enough to thumb it out.

They do NOT need to be hammered in, whether bottomed out or not.

Forged instead of today's investment cast is not all that much better. Forging can be used for scrap steel products or the best grades of steel. Investment cast scrap tin will make a poor casting. Forging of scrap tin will make a bad forging.

Both forged and investment cast products with the correct metallurgy will make superior product.

Color case does not necessarily have "soft as mush" metal inside. "Color case" is decorative. Most case is to make a harder surface on a hard piece of steel. A wear surface, such as the trigger, hammer sears. Glass hard on an already hard piece of steel. That is the criteria that gunwriters consider when they determine how "crisp" a trigger release is. "Crisp as glass", as in glass breaking right now.

Hawg,

You got a very good point there. 150 years ago, unless in combat, I doubt that a shooter fired 2 cylinders per year. It was a tool. You didn't shoot it unless you needed to. We grew up on TV westerns where they shot 500 rounds per episode. Unless in combat, they never stressed their firearms as much as our weekend warriors do.

We go out and try to shoot 100 or more in a Saturday shoot. That is probably 5 times as much as they were used in their era. Maybe a 100 times as much. There have been stories of people needing their BP finding that it is rusted solid.

Regardless, there is no proof at all that the Colt method was less good than the Rem model. I own both. I like both. I do not think that one is better than the other FOR THAT DAY.

If you are talking 50 cal. Smith, and 44 Mag Smith, the topstrap PROBABLY is best. I don't think anybody has ever tried to make a strapless 44 Mag. It might be feasible. Metalurigacally correct steels used.

If that collectible Browning Auto 5 is what you are looking for, you got a bargain. I don't like them. Not that I don't wish I had back the one I traded in 40 some years ago for a Rem 870 BDL trap gun. Trade in was about 125. THAT sumbitch kicked the hell out of me after 7 25 shot rounds of Trap.

Bought the 870 the next day. Have shot Rem 870's, Rem 1100's and Browning Lightning O/U's ever since. Have 2 Rem 870's and one Browning O/U, right now, my Browning a 1951 model.

With all of them, I have shot up to 400 rounds of 12 ga. 1 1/8 oz loads, trap loads, without the bigass shoulder bruise, per day at ATA shoots.

Hell, I'd like to have every firearm I have gotten rid of over the last 50 years. I go to gunshows and see 1500 bucks for something I sold for 200, way back then.

By the same token, bought a 7 mm Rem Mag for 115 bucks in about '68, with scope and the rest of the box of shells the guy couldn't handle. 40 years ago, again.

That was then and this is now..

Cheers,

Geprge
 

Indian Outlaw

New member
Both forged and investment cast products with the correct metallurgy will make superior product.

This is true.

Assuming the same steel is used, I prefer forgings over castings. (I'm thinking of high performance crankshafts, which are typically forged for strength and ductability.)

But modern castings can be very strong.
 
Last edited:

madcratebuilder

New member
As to the shooters driving the wedge in too tight because the arbor is not bottomed out, I don't think so. It only takes a little bit too much force to lock up the cylinder. More likely those WITH a bottomed arbor will bang it in too hard. Jammed.

I agree if the gun has relatively normal barrel gap. I have seen gaps around .030-.050 and guys where driving the wedge in to close that up(and tilting the barrel up) That was to put a lot of pulling force on the arbor/frame joint that was never intended.
 

Oquirrh

New member
gmatov asked:Are you shooting a .36? 15 grs, squib load, OK. They WILL hold more.

This '51 Navy is .36. I'm trying to get an accurate load out of it without wasting powder or putting undue stress on the gun. I have no fear of it blowing up. I've lived through two chainfires caused -- i think -- by loose caps.

I've shot the Navy with 20 and 25 grains of fffg without out any difference in accuracy.
 

gmatov

Moderator
Oquirrh,

Shoot any load you like. You can't OVERLOAD them, they simply won't hold too much powder. 15 grs. is not a squib load, either. It will clear the barrel. That is one of the things you DON'T want, a ball stuck in the barrel and you don't realize it, shoot again.

You will bulge, if not burst, the barrel.

22 grs of BP will give you over 1000 FPS from that revolver. And about 325 shots per pound. I have to go correct an entry on cost. Assuming 20 bucks a pound, you will burn nearly 7 cents in powder per shot.

Cheers,

George
 

Oquirrh

New member
Thanks, George.

That's what I thought squib load meant -- not enough to get the ball downrange. (I've shot a .36 pocket navy with 12 grain loads with no problem hitting the target).

I usually load whatever gives me the best accuracy, but contrary to what some folks say, my .44s usually are most accurate with heavy loads.

except the .36s. They seem to be consistently less accurate no matter what I put in them. I'm curious to see what accuracy I can get out of my new-to-me .36 Remington.
 

Smokin_Gun

New member
You'll like the .36 Rem... I have one in a 1858 Euroarms Hawes L.A. CA. And a Pietta .36 also ... Good shooters nice tight groups 20-22gr of BP fffg and round ball.
 

gmatov

Moderator
Oq,

I don't know if I did make this clear. "Squib" load does not clear the barrel. You don't know it, you shoot again, you almost certainly will either bulge or blow up the barrel.

Look into that, if you have time.

Cheers,

George
 
Top