Looking for a good Colt Clone
- Thread starter charles isaac
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charles isaac
New member
What are the problems with the Goucho? Can you get one with a 6" barrel?
I looked at a USFA at a local pawn shop and it is a very nice pistol but the barrel is too short on this one.
I looked at a USFA at a local pawn shop and it is a very nice pistol but the barrel is too short on this one.
North Bender
New member
Well, this USFA Pre-War doesn't fit all your criteria, but it does fit some - walnut grips, and the best Colt clone money can buy. This new one, in .45 Colt with a fitted .45 acp cylinder is much more than you appear to want to pay, but I don't think you can find a better fit and feel in a SAA today.
Charles,
Six inches is a non-standard barrel length in single-actions, period. Standard lengths are 4 3/4, 4 5/8, 5 1/2, and 7 1/2 inches. Occasionally, you may see a 6.5-inch barrel, such as some of the Ruger center & rimfires. Ruger also does a 9-inch .22 LR Single-Six. EAA sells a 4 1/2-inch Bounty Hunter at the shorter end.
You will have to pay to have one made, unless you beat lottery odds and find one for sale that somebody else already had shortened or custom ordered.
You can go with Colt or USFA for the best quality, and order one with that barrel length from their custom shops, which will be expensive but much more of a known quantity than ANY of the other clones.
You can buy a new or used whatever, with a longer barrel & have it shortened locally.
Your chances of meeting all of your criteria in a QUALITY gun already built to your specs are zero, if you insist on the 1860 Army gripframe and a custom barrel length. You've reduced your options for success even without the gripframe, if you're only willing or able to spend a low-dollar amount.
Don't mean to be harping on you, but you're pinning your hopes on a gun that doesn't exist without at least some form of custom work.
Denis
Six inches is a non-standard barrel length in single-actions, period. Standard lengths are 4 3/4, 4 5/8, 5 1/2, and 7 1/2 inches. Occasionally, you may see a 6.5-inch barrel, such as some of the Ruger center & rimfires. Ruger also does a 9-inch .22 LR Single-Six. EAA sells a 4 1/2-inch Bounty Hunter at the shorter end.
You will have to pay to have one made, unless you beat lottery odds and find one for sale that somebody else already had shortened or custom ordered.
You can go with Colt or USFA for the best quality, and order one with that barrel length from their custom shops, which will be expensive but much more of a known quantity than ANY of the other clones.
You can buy a new or used whatever, with a longer barrel & have it shortened locally.
Your chances of meeting all of your criteria in a QUALITY gun already built to your specs are zero, if you insist on the 1860 Army gripframe and a custom barrel length. You've reduced your options for success even without the gripframe, if you're only willing or able to spend a low-dollar amount.
Don't mean to be harping on you, but you're pinning your hopes on a gun that doesn't exist without at least some form of custom work.
Denis
Charles, trouble reports on the Gaucho are sort of all over the map. Most involve problems with small inner bits rather than major parts giving way, so it's generally not a safety issue (they're not blowing up or anything).
DPris is right: the original barrel length for military contract Colt 45s was 7.5". A later batch was made for officers and others (and civilians) in 5.5", and then the shorter mostly-civilian-only "gunfighter" length of 4.75" came out. More or less anything other than those were custom-ordered or special run for MANY years. 4.75" puts the end of the barrel flush with the ejector rod.
You'll sometimes see 5.5" referred to as "Artilleryman's" but that's not completely historically accurate.
Ruger shortened the ejector rod very slightly so their standard "gunfighter pattern" barrel length was 4.68". For a while they did 6.5" as a standard option and sometimes 10" for some models, but more commonly they stuck with the old standards of 5.5" and 7.5".
Because EVERY manufacturer of single action guns makes a 5.5", none make a 6". Too similar. The 5.5" is historically accurate.
DPris is right: the original barrel length for military contract Colt 45s was 7.5". A later batch was made for officers and others (and civilians) in 5.5", and then the shorter mostly-civilian-only "gunfighter" length of 4.75" came out. More or less anything other than those were custom-ordered or special run for MANY years. 4.75" puts the end of the barrel flush with the ejector rod.
You'll sometimes see 5.5" referred to as "Artilleryman's" but that's not completely historically accurate.
Ruger shortened the ejector rod very slightly so their standard "gunfighter pattern" barrel length was 4.68". For a while they did 6.5" as a standard option and sometimes 10" for some models, but more commonly they stuck with the old standards of 5.5" and 7.5".
Because EVERY manufacturer of single action guns makes a 5.5", none make a 6". Too similar. The 5.5" is historically accurate.
Jim Watson
New member
Well Colt did make a 6.5" SAA.
One.
A prototype .38 for consideration by the Navy.
One.
A prototype .38 for consideration by the Navy.
EIGHTYDUECE
New member
If I'm not mistaken, Colt builds their SAAs from Uberti (Italian company) parts and they will be no stronger than the Uberti (Italian)
Italian guns are very nice, but like US made stuff, you've got to buy from the higher quality companies such as Beretta, Cimarron, Uberti, Navy Arms just to name a few good ones.
The pistol you describe is a custon build and will not be found out of the box from any factory.
I would suggest a 5 1/2" Beretta Stampede (Beretta quality control is top notch, secone to none in my opinion). Have an 1860 Army grip frame and grip installed if possible.
USFA is nice but you end up spending in the ballpark of the Colt.
You might give a look at the Beretta Bisley, it has a longer grip, but it is a bit pricey. If you could live with a Ruger, you could buy a Ruger bisley, they are nice.
Good luck on your search and let us know hows it turns out and what you end up buying.
Regards
EDIT: It turns out that the SAA from Colt is made in house at Colt and not with Italian parts. Disregard the info at the beginning of this post.
Italian guns are very nice, but like US made stuff, you've got to buy from the higher quality companies such as Beretta, Cimarron, Uberti, Navy Arms just to name a few good ones.
The pistol you describe is a custon build and will not be found out of the box from any factory.
I would suggest a 5 1/2" Beretta Stampede (Beretta quality control is top notch, secone to none in my opinion). Have an 1860 Army grip frame and grip installed if possible.
USFA is nice but you end up spending in the ballpark of the Colt.
You might give a look at the Beretta Bisley, it has a longer grip, but it is a bit pricey. If you could live with a Ruger, you could buy a Ruger bisley, they are nice.
Good luck on your search and let us know hows it turns out and what you end up buying.
Regards
EDIT: It turns out that the SAA from Colt is made in house at Colt and not with Italian parts. Disregard the info at the beginning of this post.
Last edited:
Jim Watson
New member
The market is smaller than you might think.
I do believe Colts are US made. There were some claims that the mutant Cowboy was on imported parts.
Cimarron, EMF Hartford, Taylors, Navy; all are made by Uberti... which is owned by Beretta. The only oddball being the Beretta branded guns with transfer bars.
Great Western II and Charles Daly are made by Pietta; Italian competitor to Uberti.
USFA started out as USPFA with Italian parts in the old Colt building but now have their own plant and build from scratch, or nearly so.
The Ruger New Vaquero is not as much bigger than a Colt as the "original" Vaquero or Blackhawks, and would be a good utility gun, but the cost of a custom .45 ACP cylinder would be high and I don't know of an 1860-ish grip for it.
I fear you are living in fantasy, Charles. A single action to your likes as cheap as you remember from 25 years ago is not reasonable.
I do believe Colts are US made. There were some claims that the mutant Cowboy was on imported parts.
Cimarron, EMF Hartford, Taylors, Navy; all are made by Uberti... which is owned by Beretta. The only oddball being the Beretta branded guns with transfer bars.
Great Western II and Charles Daly are made by Pietta; Italian competitor to Uberti.
USFA started out as USPFA with Italian parts in the old Colt building but now have their own plant and build from scratch, or nearly so.
The Ruger New Vaquero is not as much bigger than a Colt as the "original" Vaquero or Blackhawks, and would be a good utility gun, but the cost of a custom .45 ACP cylinder would be high and I don't know of an 1860-ish grip for it.
I fear you are living in fantasy, Charles. A single action to your likes as cheap as you remember from 25 years ago is not reasonable.
82,
You are entirely mistaken, no part in or of a current Colt Peacemaker comes from Italy, don't know where you got that from.
Italian clones, as Jim pointed out, are made by either Uberti or Pietta and no matter what names or US import company stampings go on them, it's one of those two sources. Neither of which is a match in quality, durability, or enduring value for the Colt.
And, re Beretta QC, when those Stampedes first came out there were several complaints about hit or miss quality & function. I'm not hearing quite as many now, so they may have stepped up on it. Beretta is usually pretty good at QC with their brand name, but the Italian guns are still something of a gamble.
Denis
You are entirely mistaken, no part in or of a current Colt Peacemaker comes from Italy, don't know where you got that from.
Italian clones, as Jim pointed out, are made by either Uberti or Pietta and no matter what names or US import company stampings go on them, it's one of those two sources. Neither of which is a match in quality, durability, or enduring value for the Colt.
And, re Beretta QC, when those Stampedes first came out there were several complaints about hit or miss quality & function. I'm not hearing quite as many now, so they may have stepped up on it. Beretta is usually pretty good at QC with their brand name, but the Italian guns are still something of a gamble.
Denis
Playboypenguin
Moderator
DPris
What exactely are the material differences between the Colt and the Beretta? Which one uses what tpe of steel for what parts?
What exactely are the material differences between the Colt and the Beretta? Which one uses what tpe of steel for what parts?
Maybe he was thinking about how the USFA's were originally made in the Colt factory and used italian parts when they were first made.
PP,
Are you talking materials, or dimensions/design?
If materials, I can't give you steel types or exact heat treatments.
I spent an interesting half hour on the phone about 8 years ago when Bob Munden called one day. He went over some aspects of how Colt makes the Peacemaker, and even though it's not still made the exact same way as it was 100 years ago, some things remain very similar.
Colt has always been careful to use (after the initial iron frames) high-grade ordnance steels in that gun, with attention to proper heat treating as that branch of the gunmakers' science evolved. Frames are still forged. Action parts are not cast. The Colt still uses a firing pin bushing, and that was a whole story in itself. Munden said there was one man at Colt who did the case hardening on the frames, and it was done the old-fashioned way, not chemically applied. And so on. For exact materials specs, you'd need to contact Colt.
One traditional & long-running problem with the Italian clones for decades was that the Italians did not take those guns seriously. Originally, when the Peacemaker replica industry started up, nobody was shooting them anywhere near as much as the CAS people do now. Uberti built functional replicas, with lesser (compared to the Colts) materials, and took design shortcuts such as eliminating the firing pin bushing, not fitting a removable/rotating cylinder pin bushing, changing dimensions, using cast parts, brass gripframes, and not properly heat treating internals. Those guns worked OK for a while when used sporadically, but the guts were soft, not fitted particularly well, and tended to wear much sooner than a properly fitted Colt SAA. I have personally run across one replica with a trigger tip (sear) so soft it actually rolled with use, leaving a VERY light trigger pull (not surprising, since there was almost no engagement with the hammer notch left). Other problems I've seen are bad springs that break (main & hand) with relatively limited use, bad headspacing, bad timing, firing pin breakage due to a misalignment with the firing pin hole in the frame, etc. This is not confined to Uberti.
One of the big selling points for the original American Western Arms was the fact that they claimed to be shipping genuine US 4140 ordnance steel to the Armi San Marco factory in Italy to use in building the AWA clones.
Cimarron Arms tells me Uberti has been using 4140 for a while now. But, they apparently weren't always.
With the CAS engine powering the clone market, importers have put increasing pressure on the Italians (ya should oughta hear some of the horror stories these guys can tell about dealing with them) to improve overall quality, and in most cases the QC has improved markedly in the past 10 years, especially with the new Uberti plant. They are finally taking the guns more seriously, and building them to last longer in actual use. In most cases, tolerances have tightened up, parts are getting better heat treating, and materials themselves may be getting upgraded in some areas.
Again, for the exact materials specs on the Berettas, you'd need to contact Beretta.
And, you could be right on the USFA thing. Some of the rumors that are still floating around can be surprising.
Denis
Are you talking materials, or dimensions/design?
If materials, I can't give you steel types or exact heat treatments.
I spent an interesting half hour on the phone about 8 years ago when Bob Munden called one day. He went over some aspects of how Colt makes the Peacemaker, and even though it's not still made the exact same way as it was 100 years ago, some things remain very similar.
Colt has always been careful to use (after the initial iron frames) high-grade ordnance steels in that gun, with attention to proper heat treating as that branch of the gunmakers' science evolved. Frames are still forged. Action parts are not cast. The Colt still uses a firing pin bushing, and that was a whole story in itself. Munden said there was one man at Colt who did the case hardening on the frames, and it was done the old-fashioned way, not chemically applied. And so on. For exact materials specs, you'd need to contact Colt.
One traditional & long-running problem with the Italian clones for decades was that the Italians did not take those guns seriously. Originally, when the Peacemaker replica industry started up, nobody was shooting them anywhere near as much as the CAS people do now. Uberti built functional replicas, with lesser (compared to the Colts) materials, and took design shortcuts such as eliminating the firing pin bushing, not fitting a removable/rotating cylinder pin bushing, changing dimensions, using cast parts, brass gripframes, and not properly heat treating internals. Those guns worked OK for a while when used sporadically, but the guts were soft, not fitted particularly well, and tended to wear much sooner than a properly fitted Colt SAA. I have personally run across one replica with a trigger tip (sear) so soft it actually rolled with use, leaving a VERY light trigger pull (not surprising, since there was almost no engagement with the hammer notch left). Other problems I've seen are bad springs that break (main & hand) with relatively limited use, bad headspacing, bad timing, firing pin breakage due to a misalignment with the firing pin hole in the frame, etc. This is not confined to Uberti.
One of the big selling points for the original American Western Arms was the fact that they claimed to be shipping genuine US 4140 ordnance steel to the Armi San Marco factory in Italy to use in building the AWA clones.
Cimarron Arms tells me Uberti has been using 4140 for a while now. But, they apparently weren't always.
With the CAS engine powering the clone market, importers have put increasing pressure on the Italians (ya should oughta hear some of the horror stories these guys can tell about dealing with them) to improve overall quality, and in most cases the QC has improved markedly in the past 10 years, especially with the new Uberti plant. They are finally taking the guns more seriously, and building them to last longer in actual use. In most cases, tolerances have tightened up, parts are getting better heat treating, and materials themselves may be getting upgraded in some areas.
Again, for the exact materials specs on the Berettas, you'd need to contact Beretta.
And, you could be right on the USFA thing. Some of the rumors that are still floating around can be surprising.
Denis
Might have a look through Jeff Quinns' gunsite:
http://www.gunblast.com/Archive.htm
He's got a thing for revolvers, and, he's got a real good handle on what's going on in the market with em.
Dr S esq.
http://www.gunblast.com/Archive.htm
He's got a thing for revolvers, and, he's got a real good handle on what's going on in the market with em.
Dr S esq.
http://www.gunblast.com/Colt_SAA.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/WBell_HeritageBigBore.htm
MSRP: $429 nickel, $379 blue, $389 color-case/blue
http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-NewVaquero2.htm
Good specs comparing guns
http://www.gunblast.com/Cimarron-Mernickle_EvilRoy.htm
Cool holster and links to Cimarron reviews.
http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus_Gaucho.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger_Bisley45.htm
Dr S Esq.
More good stuff on the subject:
http://www.gunblast.com/JimTaylor_Uberti.htm
For a modern, American made, and very affordable replica of the old Colt SAA .45, I highly recommend the USFA Rodeo. I was pleasantly surprised at the quality of fit and finish, and think that you will be also. For the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting, or as an everyday working gun, it is just the ticket.
Check out the USFA complete line of quality sixguns online at: www.usfirearms.com.
http://www.gunblast.com/Cimarron_Lightning-Thunderer.htmhttp://www.gunblast.com/USFA_Rodeo.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/Freedom_97.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/Cimarron_ModelP.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/Revolver_Accuracy.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/WBell_HeritageBigBore.htm
MSRP: $429 nickel, $379 blue, $389 color-case/blue
http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-NewVaquero2.htm
Good specs comparing guns
http://www.gunblast.com/Cimarron-Mernickle_EvilRoy.htm
Cool holster and links to Cimarron reviews.
http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus_Gaucho.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger_Bisley45.htm
Dr S Esq.
More good stuff on the subject:
http://www.gunblast.com/JimTaylor_Uberti.htm
For a modern, American made, and very affordable replica of the old Colt SAA .45, I highly recommend the USFA Rodeo. I was pleasantly surprised at the quality of fit and finish, and think that you will be also. For the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting, or as an everyday working gun, it is just the ticket.
Check out the USFA complete line of quality sixguns online at: www.usfirearms.com.
http://www.gunblast.com/Cimarron_Lightning-Thunderer.htmhttp://www.gunblast.com/USFA_Rodeo.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/Freedom_97.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/Cimarron_ModelP.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/Revolver_Accuracy.htm
EIGHTYDUECE
New member
I was mistaken, it was the Colt Signature series Cap & ball pistols not the SAA, my bad
North Bender
New member
Hey Socrates, how'd you like my Pre-War photos?
Good to see all the links.
Good to see all the links.
That's a real beauty, but, it reminds me of a couple things. Doesn't have a transfer bar, so it's a 5 shooter. Love the grip.
Looks like the one on my Ruger Max.
Well, may have to get another 45, but, I'm after a BFR. I like stainless, like transfer bars, and like 6 shots. Guess guns are more tools for me then anything else, and, if they cost a lot of money, and don't do what I want, when something half the price will, I get rid of em. I haven't been up on 45's for awhile. When I found out Rugers cylinders and barrels were so bad, and, other then BFR, the only other gun I can think of that's a 45 that's strong enough to shoot the ammo I've got is a FA, and, that's now a 4 shooter, since the 83's have the same sort of safety a Colt does. So, that leaves me hoping someone decides to sell a BFR around here, since no one carries them.
How strong is that USAF? Will it take 44 magnum pressure 45 Colt loads?
What I'd be better off with is a 454.
NB:
You got time to bring me up to speed? I'd be looking for a 45 Colt, or 454, capable of shooting 44 magnum level loads, pressure wise, all day long. After a transfer bar, so it's 6 shots. Anyone put one out with a tight cylinder, good barrel, and a Seville quality action, that you can actually get parts for?
Ammo I have laying around is 45 Colt 325's at 1350, 260's at 1450 fps.
What do they run? Thanks
Dr S Esq.
Looks like the one on my Ruger Max.
Well, may have to get another 45, but, I'm after a BFR. I like stainless, like transfer bars, and like 6 shots. Guess guns are more tools for me then anything else, and, if they cost a lot of money, and don't do what I want, when something half the price will, I get rid of em. I haven't been up on 45's for awhile. When I found out Rugers cylinders and barrels were so bad, and, other then BFR, the only other gun I can think of that's a 45 that's strong enough to shoot the ammo I've got is a FA, and, that's now a 4 shooter, since the 83's have the same sort of safety a Colt does. So, that leaves me hoping someone decides to sell a BFR around here, since no one carries them.
How strong is that USAF? Will it take 44 magnum pressure 45 Colt loads?
What I'd be better off with is a 454.
NB:
You got time to bring me up to speed? I'd be looking for a 45 Colt, or 454, capable of shooting 44 magnum level loads, pressure wise, all day long. After a transfer bar, so it's 6 shots. Anyone put one out with a tight cylinder, good barrel, and a Seville quality action, that you can actually get parts for?
Ammo I have laying around is 45 Colt 325's at 1350, 260's at 1450 fps.
What do they run? Thanks
Dr S Esq.
charles isaac
New member
So far I like the USFA pistols the best. They seem to be the closest to what my old Colt was like.
North Bender
New member
Hello Socrates:
I need to scan the forum more often.
As Mr. March wrote, and I suspect he knows a lot more about these things than I do, the USFA's are not made for the high pressure loads. I believe they are the finest Single Action Army's produced, in terms of fit, feel, and finish, but they are replicas of the pre-WWII model Colt Peacemaker; made to handle the stress of smokeless powder but not the stress of loads over the .45 Colt SAMMI limits.
For what you describe the best value may be with Rugers, then on to Freedom Arms, Bowen, etc. I was not looking for the most powerful hunting pistol, I was looking for the best made SAA.
I need to scan the forum more often.
As Mr. March wrote, and I suspect he knows a lot more about these things than I do, the USFA's are not made for the high pressure loads. I believe they are the finest Single Action Army's produced, in terms of fit, feel, and finish, but they are replicas of the pre-WWII model Colt Peacemaker; made to handle the stress of smokeless powder but not the stress of loads over the .45 Colt SAMMI limits.
For what you describe the best value may be with Rugers, then on to Freedom Arms, Bowen, etc. I was not looking for the most powerful hunting pistol, I was looking for the best made SAA.
Jim Watson
New member
Note that USFA does not offer .357 Magnum.
Not because the cylinder isn't strong enough, but because they use the old rigid conical firing pin, which would be more subject to primer cratering, flow, and extrusion than the late Colt small diameter pin with a little "float".
Not because the cylinder isn't strong enough, but because they use the old rigid conical firing pin, which would be more subject to primer cratering, flow, and extrusion than the late Colt small diameter pin with a little "float".