loading .38 brass to .357 levels

[zxcvbob]

I load .38/44 equivalent loads for my Marlin 1894C. I have lots of .38 Special brass, not much .357 brass, and the Marlin holds one more .38 in the magazine. I label the box "Rifle only!" and I mark the case heads with a red Magic Marker in case they get separated from the box.

Do not use .357 Magnum data in .38 cases unless you seat the bullet out to the same .357 OAL, otherwise the pressure will be way too high. I use QuickLoad software to calculate my load data, but the best I've found is the old Elmer K. load using I don't remember how much 2400 powder (I use 158 grain RNFP bullets instead of 173 grain wide-nose SWC's.)

For my revolvers I usually use .357 brass, although I have shot the "rifle" loads on occasion. BTW, 99% of my reloads use cast bullets.

I did have case head separations when I tried loading Blue Dot powder to about 37500 psi in .38 Special brass; that was before Alliant put out a bulletin that Blue Dot was not safe in some .357 loads. So be careful. (Herco, AA#7, and 2400 are better powder choices. Power Pistol ought to be good but I haven't tried it yet)

None of this precludes the possibility that your friend might be an idiot

Hope this helps.

 

[NWPilgrim]

After reams of qualified statements in recent posts, I go back to the OP and still say, "Your friend is an idiot if he tried that."

Nowhere in the original question is there any qualification about "Can .38 special brass be loaded to .357 levels IF I use an N-Frame or .357 revolver, and IF I don't use .357 data, and IF I use bullets over 160 gr with a crimping groove further back (like the original .38/44's 173 grainer), and IF I don't use some powders that are OK for .357 but not good for this, and IF I can actually find reliable data for .38-44 loads."

Someone advanced enough to know how to handle that information already knows the freakin answer. To respond in any manner other than "No, that would be idiotic," to a non-handloader is irresponsible at worst and misleading at best.

The way the question was asked you HAVE to assume he means: Can I load a typical .38 case, using typical .38 bullets, to .357 velocity levels and shoot in a typical .38? Otherwise why would he not just use a .357? Why ask the question unless he meant using a typical .38?

As far as I can remember from the Keith history is that his original nullet used for the .38-44 used a crimping groove further back that seated the bullet out much further. I don't think his load data would be valid if you used a typical .38/.357 bullet with the normal crimping groove. Of course, Keith might have been a safety ninny and had that bullet specially designed with the unusual crimp groove because he anticipated OSHA and it scared him.

I guess those idiot reloading manual writers aren't smart enough to include .38-44 data in their manuals.

Carry on!

 

[CraigC]

Lots of "I guess" and "I think" when the facts are out there if you choose to seek them out.

If the question is "...can you load .38Spl cases to .357 levels?", then the simple answer is yes. Nothing stupid or idiotic about it, IF it fits your needs, IF you use proper loading data and IF you use them in the proper guns. If you meet those criteria, there's no reason NOT to do it and to call it stupid or idiotic proves your own lack of understanding more than anything else. USFA doesn't make a .357 and that doesn't bother me a bit but I've thought real hard about getting a Rodeo in .38Spl strictly for shooting .38-44 loads in. It's no different from using heavy .45Colt loads in a large frame Ruger or heavy .44Spl loads in the proper sixguns. One must be a careful and prudent handloader to ensure your safety and that of those around you. Just like with anything else.

Brian Pearce did an article in Handloader on the .38-44 with extensive loading data using various cast and jacketed bullets. The data is out there. Chuck Taylor also did one in Guns or A/H a while back that's also useful.

To respond in any manner other than "No, that would be idiotic," to a non-handloader is irresponsible at worst and misleading at best.

Exactly how is a non-handloader supposed to get into trouble with that information?

 

[458winshooter]

357 in a 38

I have an old handloader magizine that talks about this.The reason that they did it was that the bullet they used was seated out very long and the newer Ruger Blackhawks have a shorter cylinder than the old ones.So they used 38 spl brass and crimped in either a lower crimp groove or in a grease grove.The article claimed that the bullet length was now too long to chamber in a 38 but would fit the shorter Blackhawk's cylinder.The powder capacity of this configuration was the same as the said bullet loaded in a 357 and crimped in the forward groove.Only now that 357 load that fit fine in the older Blackhawk was too long for the newer ones.I would not dare to try this and don't recommend it either,but it has been done.I would also point out that the 357 got its start because people were loading large frame 38's hot to see what they could come up with.Pleeeeeeese be safe if you ever dare to try this!!!!!! Russ

 

[RKG]

In a similar thread here last year, it was proposed that .38 brass is not strong enough and would result in a detonation. After a bunch of arguing, I proceeded to the basement and fired a single .38Spl case, which was once-fired from a bulk box of Winchester or Remington factory ammo, with 13.5gr of 2400 under a commercial 158gr SWC twenty straight times without a hitch. Some are overly cautious, some just don't know what they're talking about.

I can't (and don't) know this for a fact, but I'd bet the price of a good cup of coffee that, today, .38 Special brass and .357 brass are identical in all dimensional respects except for length -- if, for no other reason, that it would be too expensive to have two sets of machines to produce what a single machine could produce acceptably.

Add to this the fact that, in an N-Frame revolver, the case is fully supported up to the rim on the side, and nicely supported on the base, and you see why Keith had no real issue with pushing .38 brass above .38 nominal pressures in a strong enough revolver.

 

[GeauxTide]

Yes, he's an idiot.

 

[CraigC]

I can't (and don't) know this for a fact, but I'd bet the price of a good cup of coffee that, today, .38 Special brass and .357 brass are identical in all dimensional respects except for length -- if, for no other reason, that it would be too expensive to have two sets of machines to produce what a single machine could produce acceptably.

I bet you're right!

Yes, he's an idiot.

Why would someone be an idiot for stating something that's 100% true???

 

[Doodlebugger45]

Hmmm... I never thought about trying to seat the bullets longer when I was doing my little experiment. As I said, I basically stopped because the accuracy was deteriorating, not because I noticed any obvious pressure signs. I speculated that the inaccuracy came because my revolver was chambered for 357 length cartridges and at higher pressures, that jump to the cylinder throat was too much in the 38 length.

That could be an interesting experiment to do though. But I doubt if I will ever do it. Now I have plenty of 357 brass, so I don't see the point in trying it. Except some of us get bored and just have to try things.

 

[salvadore]

don't want to offend anyone, this is a great forum, however, I have never seen so many politically correct nancy pants, oh my, let's not act like we are all adults in here yadayayada in all my life.

 

[Shane Tuttle]

A gentle reminder: Let's continue with attacking statements, but not the person. It's fine to be concerned with safety regarding loads. However, I suggest looking at the issue from both sides of the coin so one can see where the other is coming from...

 

[Dannyl]

Loading 38 spc cases for 0.357 Magnum

Hi,
I have a S&W 586 which I use for pin shooting, IDPA and metallic Silouhette.
At one stage many yeasrs ago I received (free) a large batch of 38 Special cases and had the same dilema you are facing.

My answer is:
I load the 38 cases with a load that is listed as hot ( but within recommended limits) for a 38, but since I shoot them from a good quality 0.357 there is no problem with that. ( I do not own a 38 so there is no issue with that, but since I keep the loads suitable for this caliber, this would not cause a problem if I had to shoot them from a 0.38). I use these only for IDPA and when practicing for pin-shooting. I do not load them with the same load as I do with 0.357 cases, as the shortter case would lead to higher pressures, and I want my gun (and hands, eyes etc) to last me for a long time.

When I prepare ammo for metal silouhette and pin shooting, I load only with 0.357 Mag cases.

So my answer is yes, you can, but only as long as you do your part not to exceed pressure limits.
Brgds,
Danny

 

[CraigC]

Thought I'd bring back this thread with the note that as recent as the current issue of American Handgunner, John Taffin talks about using the classic .38-44 load (13.5gr 2400) in several .357's due to cylinder length issues. Some cylinders are simply not long enough for the 173gr Keith bullet seated in the crimp groove in .357 brass. Guns in question were a S&W M27 and Ruger Old Model Blackhawk.

 

[Blue]

38/357 loads

Do yourself and others a real favor - stick with the published loads in your manuals.

Accuracy is in the eye of the beholder.