loading .38 brass to .357 levels
- Thread starter Buzzcook
- Start date
Hydraulicman
New member
I'm not sure you could reach max .357 loads in .38 brass
H110 almost fills the case in a .357.
But you sure can load em' really really hot.
I load .357 mags in .357 mag brass so I can't shoot them in my .38's
My lyman manual says not to do it. #49
H110 almost fills the case in a .357.
But you sure can load em' really really hot.
I load .357 mags in .357 mag brass so I can't shoot them in my .38's
My lyman manual says not to do it. #49
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
with "some" powders you can probably reach at least close to 357 loads ( whats the diff between +P+ 38 special loads & begining loads in 357 mag... likely not much )... biggest issue is destroying perfectly good guns by firing too hot a load in them
Doodlebugger45
New member
Sure, you CAN do it, but it doesn't seem to work all that well. Another poster here was wondering if the accuracy might be better if you nearly fill up the 38 case with powder as compared to a lot of empty space in the 357 case with the same charge. I mean, you take a look at how much space a "normal" amount of Unique takes up in the 38 case and it sure looks like you have a lot of extra space you could fill up.
It got me to wondering too so I tried it once. The revolver I was using was chambered for 357 and I had shot plenty of stout loads in it so I didn't worry too much about it. And I loaded up a progression of loads too so that I could make sure the pressure wasn't building up too much. You can't just dump the same amount of powder into the 38 case as you would the 357.
So I loaded up a bunch of progressively hotter 38 loads. I didn't have a chronograph so I didn't measure velocities. I don't have the load sheets in front of me here, but suffice to say I had some of them loaded with significantly more powder than called for in the 38 +P loading.
The interesting thing though is that the accuracy did NOT improve as the cases got fuller. The accuracy seemed to stay fairly constant, maybe improving to its best as I got "almost" to the +P level. Then it started falling off as I exceeded the +P levels. The recoil wasn't remarkable, but the hotter loads were just getting worse until I finally quit. The velocity might have been close to the 357 loads but my accuracy using a normal 357 case and load was far superior to the 38 "super hot" loads.
It was a fun experiment, but it just showed me that the powder and ammo makers had this all figured out 70 years ago or so. If you want the best performance in 38 cases, then stick to the standard loads for them. If you want 357 velocity and performance, then use a 357 case.
It got me to wondering too so I tried it once. The revolver I was using was chambered for 357 and I had shot plenty of stout loads in it so I didn't worry too much about it. And I loaded up a progression of loads too so that I could make sure the pressure wasn't building up too much. You can't just dump the same amount of powder into the 38 case as you would the 357.
So I loaded up a bunch of progressively hotter 38 loads. I didn't have a chronograph so I didn't measure velocities. I don't have the load sheets in front of me here, but suffice to say I had some of them loaded with significantly more powder than called for in the 38 +P loading.
The interesting thing though is that the accuracy did NOT improve as the cases got fuller. The accuracy seemed to stay fairly constant, maybe improving to its best as I got "almost" to the +P level. Then it started falling off as I exceeded the +P levels. The recoil wasn't remarkable, but the hotter loads were just getting worse until I finally quit. The velocity might have been close to the 357 loads but my accuracy using a normal 357 case and load was far superior to the 38 "super hot" loads.
It was a fun experiment, but it just showed me that the powder and ammo makers had this all figured out 70 years ago or so. If you want the best performance in 38 cases, then stick to the standard loads for them. If you want 357 velocity and performance, then use a 357 case.
SamStafford
Moderator
I could have not stated it any better. +1 on that. 
When you hear things like this ask yourself who is the source. Is this friend an experienced reloader (I doubt it)? Has he actually done it successfully (I doubt it)? What is his source of information (rumor, I suspect)?
I don't think any experienced, LIVE reloader would ever promulgate such reckless information. When it comes to firearms, if the person does not have expert knowledgte and does not have personal experience in the specific subject, then you should heavily discount their "ideas."
A real life handloader would usually back up any claims about unusual loads with a reference to data tables, pressure testing he performed, or at least some noted firearms expert's writing (Ken waters, A. O. Ackley, etc.).
This one can be filed under "Wild Ass Rumor That Can Get Me Maimed Or Dead."
I don't think any experienced, LIVE reloader would ever promulgate such reckless information. When it comes to firearms, if the person does not have expert knowledgte and does not have personal experience in the specific subject, then you should heavily discount their "ideas."
A real life handloader would usually back up any claims about unusual loads with a reference to data tables, pressure testing he performed, or at least some noted firearms expert's writing (Ken waters, A. O. Ackley, etc.).
This one can be filed under "Wild Ass Rumor That Can Get Me Maimed Or Dead."
There are lots of powder combinations that will turn the sedate 38 spl to a little bomb.
Just add enough Bullseye, for example. At some point, the top strap will be removed from the revolver.
I can recall an article in Handgunner from the 80's. Some reloader sent his 38 Special data to the magazine. The magazine had the loads pressure tested, and the hot ones were over 80,000 psia.
If you want a 357, get a 357.
Just add enough Bullseye, for example. At some point, the top strap will be removed from the revolver.
I can recall an article in Handgunner from the 80's. Some reloader sent his 38 Special data to the magazine. The magazine had the loads pressure tested, and the hot ones were over 80,000 psia.
If you want a 357, get a 357.
As a matter of historical fact, the .357 Magnum was the result of one fellow's loading .38 Spl. ammo to higher pressures and velocities. His name was Keith; originally these were called ".38/44" rounds and were factory loaded by Hi-Vel. At the same time, S&W made an N-Frame called the .38/44 Outdoorsman, which was specifically designed to take high pressure rounds.
Ultimately, the .357 case was lengthened 0.135" over the .38 Spl. case. However, this was done to prevent chambering the .357 case in a .38 revolver, and not because greater case capacity was needed. The elevation of the .38 into the .357 was the result of propellant chemistry advances, not just more powder.
Ultimately, the .357 case was lengthened 0.135" over the .38 Spl. case. However, this was done to prevent chambering the .357 case in a .38 revolver, and not because greater case capacity was needed. The elevation of the .38 into the .357 was the result of propellant chemistry advances, not just more powder.
DoctorXring
New member
.
It's all a matter of pressure.
A 38 Special case can be loaded to 357 magnum level pressures.
Perhaps not equivalent velocities, as the magnum case has
more room for powder. But it will be close.
The MAIN reason the 357 case is longer than the 38 Special
was to prevent the higher pressure round being placed in a
38 Special rated revolver. Again, it's about pressure. Some
revolvers just can't handle the 38,000 psi generated by the
magnum loadings. The 38 Special was designed around 16,000 psi
loadings. 20,000 with the +P loadings.
I don't recommend loading the 38 Special cases beyond +P levels.
It's all about safety.
.
It's all a matter of pressure.
A 38 Special case can be loaded to 357 magnum level pressures.
Perhaps not equivalent velocities, as the magnum case has
more room for powder. But it will be close.
The MAIN reason the 357 case is longer than the 38 Special
was to prevent the higher pressure round being placed in a
38 Special rated revolver. Again, it's about pressure. Some
revolvers just can't handle the 38,000 psi generated by the
magnum loadings. The 38 Special was designed around 16,000 psi
loadings. 20,000 with the +P loadings.
I don't recommend loading the 38 Special cases beyond +P levels.
It's all about safety.
.
The guys reason was that it was easier/simpler to load super hot .38 loads.
I figured he was shooting them out of a .357 cause he could type. Unless he was typing with his stumps.
I would have thought the cases would be splitting every time the got shot.
It just makes my eyes bulge when I read that kind of stuff.
I figured he was shooting them out of a .357 cause he could type. Unless he was typing with his stumps.
I would have thought the cases would be splitting every time the got shot.
It just makes my eyes bulge when I read that kind of stuff.
AlaskaMike
New member
Loading hot .38s for use in .357 mag revolvers was actually pretty common decades ago. Back then .38 brass was much, much more plentiful than .357 brass and naturally people used what they could get their hands on.
Mike
Mike
Mike Irwin
Staff
If you find yourself shooting next to him at the range, move down a couple of lanes.
That will give the chunk of cylinder a chance to slow down a little bit before it hits you.
That will give the chunk of cylinder a chance to slow down a little bit before it hits you.
Yes, and Yes. It is possible, although not advisable if you want to keep all your body parts in good working order. That is how 357 Magnums were invented, you can read all about it if you study up on Elmer Keith and the 38/44. Even so, I would strongly advise against it. And telling someone else that they can do it is irresponsible at best.
Doodlebugger45
New member
I guess some folks figger if Elmer Keith could do it, then they can too. But I suispect that Keith blew up some guns along the way. I guess, but "hell I wasn't there".
The thing is, there's just no real good reason to do it nowdays unless you're just bored like I was.
The thing is, there's just no real good reason to do it nowdays unless you're just bored like I was.
AlaskaMike
New member
Elmer Keith did it using N frame S&Ws where it's entirely safe. Somebody doing it in K or J frame S&Ws would be entirely different, and stupid. Two completely different cases. The separate issue of hot .38 loads intended for strong N frame revolvers mistakenly ending up in a small frame revolver is a very real, and very scary scenario.
As I mentioned earlier, back in Keith's day he did it because .38 brass was plentiful, and .357 wasn't. That's not the case now, so the reason to do it doesn't exist anymore.
Mike
As I mentioned earlier, back in Keith's day he did it because .38 brass was plentiful, and .357 wasn't. That's not the case now, so the reason to do it doesn't exist anymore.
Mike
There are peeps in here that are cautious to a fault. I have been shooting +P+s in my .357s for 34 years. I grew up with Skeeter and Elmer of course, guys who either hadn't heard of OSHA, or didn't care. Last week I shot a 1.5 inch group with a 358429 over a generous amount of 2400 in a .38 case. I could actually see both sights that day..oh joy. I have shot 38/44 type loads in model 60s, Nframes and Colt OP .38 spec.
Wow, there was a lot of silliness in this thread up until this post. Folks, it's not a big deal. Apparently nobody's heard of the .38-44. Doesn't anybody read anymore? You can load .38 cases with a given charge of 2400 to duplicate original .38-44 loads which, if I remember right, push Keith's 173gr SWC to over 1200fps. Perfectly safe in any post-war Colt SAA or replica, USFA .38Spl's, S&W N-frames, Colt New Service and any .357Mag. It's necessary in the K-frames because of the long nose of the Keith bullet. Pressures run somewhere around 30,000psi.
In a similar thread here last year, it was proposed that .38 brass is not strong enough and would result in a detonation. After a bunch of arguing, I proceeded to the basement and fired a single .38Spl case, which was once-fired from a bulk box of Winchester or Remington factory ammo, with 13.5gr of 2400 under a commercial 158gr SWC twenty straight times without a hitch. Some are overly cautious, some just don't know what they're talking about.
Exactly.
Today, we think in terms of +P ammo with light for caliber bullets. Elmer Keith had no real use for light bullets in any scenario other than maybe "pest control".
So his experiments were with bullets over 160gr for good accuracy and penetration at long range. He liked the 173 and 180gr bullets. His findings then are valid today for those who study.
An older gentleman at the club where I shoot routinely outscores the rest of us 'youngsters" with his Ruger GP100 and mid range handloads of 2400 under a 180gr SWC BB cast bullet all tucked into .38 special cases. He can seat the bullet out a good deal and still have no problems getting too long for the .357 chamber, and it doesn't beat him up.
Off hand, he can keep 90% of his shots inside 3" at 25yds. He uses the same gun and load on field pistol silhouettes. The 100 yd rams don't stand a chance. His Ruger simply likes that combination.
Today, we think in terms of +P ammo with light for caliber bullets. Elmer Keith had no real use for light bullets in any scenario other than maybe "pest control".
So his experiments were with bullets over 160gr for good accuracy and penetration at long range. He liked the 173 and 180gr bullets. His findings then are valid today for those who study.
An older gentleman at the club where I shoot routinely outscores the rest of us 'youngsters" with his Ruger GP100 and mid range handloads of 2400 under a 180gr SWC BB cast bullet all tucked into .38 special cases. He can seat the bullet out a good deal and still have no problems getting too long for the .357 chamber, and it doesn't beat him up.
Off hand, he can keep 90% of his shots inside 3" at 25yds. He uses the same gun and load on field pistol silhouettes. The 100 yd rams don't stand a chance. His Ruger simply likes that combination.