load for small apartment

[tackdriver]

I'll be moving into a SMALL apartment in August. Other apartments in the house have been burglarized before, so I'm going to get a 12ga. 590 as soon as I can afford it. The longest range in the house wouldn't be more than 10 yards and the walls are REALLY flimsy. What kind of load would you recommend for this situation? Brands and shot size, please.

 

[Solitar]

Opt for the option of cylinder bore. Then #2 or #4 lead birdshot in 2 3/4" shells, backed up with some #4 buckshot for the 5 to 10 yard shots. Some of the "personal defense" loads from Federal or the reduced recoil loads from others may be worth considering.

Another really good load is a 500 to 70lb German Shepherd or Shepherd mix. A bigger breed or dog in a small apartment would be a real pain. Lighter than 50 lb and they may not have the oomph or intimidation factor. Then there is the piles of #2 factor.

 

[tackdriver]

Funny you mention it, the guy next door has a pit bull. A dog is not an option in this apt. It is just too small.

 

[Gunslinger]

I would seriously consider a .410 for the application you are talking about. If you feel it must be a 12 gauge there are light (half length?) shells on the market that may serve the purpose. Someone here will know what they are called.

------------------
Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.

 

[Solitar]

Aguila has 12 gauge minishells, but they are now either slugs or buckshot - both of which may penetrate walls. The #7 1/2 birdshot versions seem discontinued from Aguila, but Cole's webpage still lists them. They might be the best bet since these would have the least penetration of walls and least recoil of the various 12 gauge loads (except maybe some light tactical loads). I'd say get 'em while they still have some, but buy only a few at first to make sure they cycle okay. http://www.aguilaammo.com/minishells.htm

Even in a small apartment (which I may soon be in again) I'd be reluctant to drop down to 20 gauge for defense (though I do have one and have 3" #2 buck for it). I'd rely instead on an 18" barrel, pistol grip, folding stock "riot gun". A full stock is very cumbersome in tight quarters. With lighter loads, the pistol grip handles fine (3" magnums are too much except for rare use).

 

[Dave McC]

A few ideas, and disagreements...

As much as I like shotguns for crisis management, I'm not sure it's the best option here, due to the chance of overpenetration. Stick with small shot if you do use one, and a standard stock. Folders and PGs are for the movies. I'm a behemoth and can use a standard stock OK in anything larger than a pup tent.

In this case, I'd suggest a handgun, your carry gun will work fine. When you leave, so does your HD weapon. Sounds to me like burglary is more of a problem than robbery,and this ensures your HD/SD tool is there when you are and not at other times.

And, if you live in one of those benighted areas where CCW is not allowed, you have to make up your mind whether obeying a bad law is a lesser risk than not.

 

[Solitar]

I live in an apartment and have had one or all three of the following under my pillow or on or beside my nightstand: snubnose .38spl loaded with Hydrashocks; S&W 629 4" .44mag loaded with Hydrashocks or Magsafes; Winchester 1200 w/ 18" barrel, PG, 6pk sidesaddle & Butler Creek folding stock.

Maybe I'm just willing to handle more abuse, but I find a pistol grip easy to deal with. Then again, I find the .44mag easy to handle too. The PG makes for a compact and effective package. A decent well-fitting folding stock makes for a secure shoulder-mount.

Sure I can handle a long barrel full stock in a tight hallway lined with bookshelves or through 24" doors that don't open fully due to stuff behind the door, BUT a 30" weapon is easier to maneuver than a 40" to 48" long one. (and a 4" .44mag is easier yet to maneuver)

Maybe those who dislike PG's with integral folding stocks have had bad experieces with rattletrap aftermarket stocks. But mine is pretty good!

 

[Solitar]

Dave does have a good point, though, about burglary and the risk of you being on the wrong end of your own gun. Unless you are in your apartment, the nightstand or pillow is the worst place to store a weapon. You could encounter a burglar who is armed with your gun. Thus my shotgun travels with me when I go home or to work at my store. If I leave it behind in either place, then it is usually hidden in an inobvious place {one of these days I may end up on the wrong end of that "usually"}

The best solution is, as Dave suggests, carry a handgun on your person at {most} all times {CC permit or no}. In my small retail shop I take this into account when considering carrying my .38 versus leaving it under the counter. The same applies in an apartment. The latter option may result in your trip back from the bathroom ending with you facing your own weapon. Personally I prefer either my .38 in a cross-draw holster just in front of my left hip or a shoulder holster with a .45 under a jacket. Both positions prevent the holster or weapon from hanging up on stuff when I squat down and then stand up.

But back to the shotgun. Perhaps in this time of litigation it would be best to have a standard hunting shotgun rather than a mean-looking "assault shotgun". If you had to use it on an aggressor, then birdshot shells would help your defense whereas buckshot would imply that you planned for using it on a person. Thus #6 shot in my 20 gauge that I've hunted rabbits with since age 12 may be more palatable to a jury than 000 buck in a riot gun.

 

[Buckeye61]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But back to the shotgun. Perhaps in this time of litigation it would be best to have a standard hunting shotgun rather than a mean-looking "assault shotgun". If you had to use it on an aggressor, then birdshot shells would help your defense whereas buckshot would imply that you planned for using it on a person. Thus #6 shot in my 20 gauge that I've hunted rabbits with since age 12 may be more palatable to a jury than 000 buck in a riot gun.[/quote]

This is exactly what the guy at the gun shop told me when I bought my HD shotgun. If something ever goes down and you go into court with a some lawyer waving around a pistol grip shotgun in front of the jury, most will not find any sort of sympathy for you...as opposed to one with a stock, which one can easily claim is for legit purposes such as hunting and target shooting.

In addition...he sold me some shells which more than one person have suggested for HD purposes, being powerful enough...yet not finding their way into the neighbor's living room. They're Winchester Rangers(mine are 12g, 2.75", with 27 #4 pellets and Low Recoil). It's marked as Law Enforcement Ammunition(though obviously anyone can buy this particular shell).

Though it was pretty expensive($11.99 for a box of 25),having more than just the used car salesman...I mean gun dealer suggest this same shell to me makes me somewhat confident it's a good choice. The price might be a little much, but hopefully it will never see any action aside from a little bit of range time.

kevin

 

[gunmart]

i hope erick comes to this mans rescue and soon.erick where are you where are you.help him before he makes a bad mistake please.

 

[tackdriver]

Have faith, fellow TFLers.
I wouldn't dream of going to the bathroom, much less buying a shotgun without asking you first
The gun security thing is an excellent point which I have been mulling over the past few days. I fully realize that if I'm worried about being burgled, one of the first things the BG is going to take is a shinny new shotgun. The last thing I want is to be shot with my own gun or to be responsible for some punk with MY gun out committing crimes. As it is, I do hunt and therefore own several rifles which would be locked in a closet with a master lock on the outside.

However, I would think that my soon-as-I-turn-21 ruger SP .357 would present more severe risks of over penetration than a shotgun loaded with bird-shot, even if loaded with .38s. Especially considering that I have WAY more experience with a shotgun.
Also, I would never put a pistol grip on a shotgun. period. It has something to do with my thumb fetish I think.
I've got a nifty "Uninvited guests will be shot and killed -- knock before you enter" sign already made.
Lots of things to consider... keep posting and I'll keep my eyes open.

 

[gunmart]

first of all a miss is a miss.i have done lots of testing with drywall and boards that you would commonly find in most home and apartments.i have found that buck and bird shot produce about the same results.given the dimentions of the average room in most everones homes is about 12 x 12 that is not much room for a buck or bird load to open up.therefore you are shooting a pattern not much bigger than a slug.dont beleive just try buckshot at the 3 yard line sometime.so given the fact that you must aim your shot to be presice at the given distances. if you miss you will get overpenatration and if you hit the muscles,tissue and fluids of a perp then you have greatly reduced the chances of over penatration.since a sholderfired weapon is much easier to hit with it would definatly be my choice.learn to hit what you aim at and be sure to practice in low light.set up a nightlight at the entrance to your safe room to backlite the subject and for god sakes invest in a dedicated lite mount so you can identify the threat.hope this helps.

 

[Dave McC]

Solitar, I taught hundreds of Correctional Officers to shoot during the ten years I instructed for the Md Dept of Public Safety and Correctional Services. During part of that time, all had to be qualified with a PG shotgun as well as the standard. Most folks found it much harder to qualify with the PG some impossible.

Since instructors had to qualify at 90% or better,and give demos, we shot hundreds of rounds yearly. After all that experience, any shotgun of my choice will have a full stock and be shot from the shoulder. There's no advantage to the PG for handling unless one has an extra hinge built into one's forearm.

I know of few WIHTF types that have PG shotguns, so it's not just me.

 

[Solitar]

Dave,
What sort of ranges does such qualification entail? What I regard as an appropriate and applicable range for the pistol grip is from my bedroom door to the entrance - 5 yards at most. At that range it's more like close quarters combat. For better shot placement beyond a few yards, it's real easy to depress the button on the swing out stock whilst holding the gun so that gravity helps the stock swing down and back (with a forward snap of one's grip to lock the stock into place).

I'd venture that with the folding stock locked back, it would be just as easy to qualify as with a full stock.

 

[Dave McC]

The course was 5 rounds at 15 yards, 5 rounds at 25. It started off with 4 in the weapon, the 5th was combat loaded through the ejection port and fired. Each pellet counted, a perfect score was 90 with our 9 pellet 00 load.

A PG may be effective at 5 yards, I KNOW a shoulder stocked weapon with a trained operator is. And, considering the effects of stress under combat, the adrenaline, the trouble performing even the simplest act, one doesn't need to have to decide when to deploy a folder, IMO.

 

[Solitar]

Dave,
In giving more thought to the tiny apartment and close quarters situation, maybe a shotgun is not appropriate. As Gunmart notes: at such close range of a few yards, even birdshot is a bolus of lead rather than a spreadout pattern. Perhaps it would be better to use a revolver or pistol (.44 or .45) with hydrashocks and have enough practice to hit the target since, as he noted, a miss is a dangerous miss regardless of it being #8 birdshot or a 230 grain FMJ.

What we may need at such close quarters is not legal - a 20 gauge with #2 buck and a 10" barrel (about 60 caliber x 2 3/4" cartridge, 2 1/2" diameter cylinder for 5 shells of 00 buck or slugs). Recoil would be no more than half again that of a .44magnum and likely would feel to be a lot less due to the weight of the weapon.

 

[Dave McC]

What you're describing is the old Ithaca Auto- Burglar, a SXS pistol,usually in the smaller gauges. They've been illegal since 1934,sorry.

As for handguns, much as I like my GM, if all I had was a good 38 revolver, I'd not consider myself unarmed, or even marginally armed.

I think the answer here is the man needs a carry gun more than just a house piece.

 

[tackdriver]

on the buckshot v. birdshot v. .38/.357 issue
Yes, a miss is a miss is a miss
I've been seriously shooting almost every type and bore of shotgun since I was 12. I've won so many turkey shoots around my grandfather's home that I am no longer welcome.
That being said, I am going to be scared as hell if I wake up to some dude creeping around my apartment and the prospect of having to shoot someone is only going to add to an adrenaline spike big enough to make my own head explode.
THAT being said, as a confident and proficient shotgunner, I realize that I just might miss.
I also realize that buckshot and birdshot are the same thing at close range - a glob of lead in a plastic cup. Birdshot, however IS less likely to penetrate walls because upon impact, the smaller pellets/lighter load is more likely to act like those nifty saftey slugs for pistols.
I AM buying a carry piece in less than a month. READ ABOVE: .357 Ruger SP 100 in a 3 inch. I haven't fired a pistol in many years and have absolutely no combat training with one. I'm taking a self-defense class in May, which will give me the documentation I need to get my cc license, NOT to make me feel competent enough to rely on it. THAT will come in October or so, after I've spent about $1000 in range time and ammo.
I CAN say that adrenaline aside, if I need to take a second shot with a shotgun, training is going to kick in and take the intruder's head off.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Yeah an auto burgler gun would be best.. or maybe a 16 bore Howdah pistol filled with shot (see ghost and the darkness).

 

[Oleg Volk]

How about a side-by-side with backshot? It would kick quite a bit but be much shorte than a pump gun with the same barrel length.