Lever Actions, pistol calibres

[Scribe]

Hi all,

Just wanted some advice regarding best powders to use in .357 and .44 to get the most velocity out of 20 inch barrelled lever actions. I have a 16” Rossi .44 which I am very pleased with, but I fancy a 20” in either calibre and have read a lot about 20” actually losing velocity over a 16” due to friction, powder burning out, etc, etc.
This would not be for hunting or short notice social crisis management, but purely range work out to a probably over ambitious 300 yards.
Any advice gratefully received

 

[akinswi]

Hi all,

Just wanted some advice regarding best powders to use in .357 and .44 to get the most velocity out of 20 inch barrelled lever actions. I have a 16” Rossi .44 which I am very pleased with, but I fancy a 20” in either calibre and have read a lot about 20” actually losing velocity over a 16” due to friction, powder burning out, etc, etc.
This would not be for hunting or short notice social crisis management, but purely range work out to a probably over ambitious 300 yards.
Any advice gratefully received

Dont know much about 44magnum but H110 is great for 357, make sure to use a small magnum pistol primer if you use 110 for 357 and work your way up dont start at max please.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

For velocity H110/Win296 are king of the hill. But, in my Henry I get the best accuracy from 2400, and I feel it’s more versatile/user friendly.

 

[Shadow9mm]

In general, longer barrels like slower powders. But bullet weight can also be a factor. Personally I would recommend H110/W296 for 158g and up bullets. It does need magnum primers to ignite cleanly. I have managed to get away with using small rifle primers with H110 in my 6in 357 with 180g bullets with good success.

you might also consider something like AA #9

 

[chris in va]

I have a Henry 20" and really enjoy it. Frankly my favorite is a 160gr RF powdercoat loaded in 38 Special cases. H110 is great for 357 but for bulk plinking to 100 yards I like the zero recoil 38's.

 

[TX Nimrod]

Proven over and over again in the past 40 years, the powders which give the highest velocities in short barrels will almost always give the highest velocities in long barrels, and vice versa. It’s hard to beat H110 and Lil’Gun in either the .357 Magnum or the .44 Magnum for top velocities.






.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

Yeah, shooting.38’s is about like shooting a .22. Crazy as it sounds, I got my best accuracy using Titegroup.

 

[TX Nimrod]

… H110 is great for 357 but for bulk plinking to 100 yards I like the zero recoil 38's…

I got my best accuracy using Titegroup

Very interesting I’m sure, except that the OP is asking for max velocity loads for shooting at 300 yards…..




.

 

[Shadow9mm]

True, but accuracy is gonna be important out at 300yds. Might be worth it to lose some fps, depending on how much it tightens the group up.

 

[AlaskaMike]

A lot of people get hung up on barrel length vs. powder burn rate. TX Nimrod is 100% correct in that the powder that gives you the best velocity in a shorter barrel will also give you the best velocity in a longer barrel, and vice versa.

If you're looking for best velocity while still staying within SAAMI max pressure, then you should look at some of the newer powders like Alliant 300MP or maybe Accurate 11FS. Obviously availability may be an issue currently.

In my Rossi carbines (.357, .44 mag, .454 Casull) 300MP gives me a good solid 100 fps higher than H110/296, while still staying within SAAMI max pressure. Accuracy of course is also excellent, but I'll admit I haven't tried any of them out to 300yds. At 100yds, my 300MP loads are tack drivers.

 

[tlm225]

I'm another user of MP300. Staying within recommended charge levels with a 158 grain JSP in my Marlin .357 it gives me 1890 FPS vs just under 1700 FPS with 2400. I haven't loaded or tested W296 or H110

 

[44 AMP]

and have read a lot about 20” actually losing velocity over a 16” due to friction, powder burning out, etc, etc.

I won't say its a total load of crap, but losing velocity due to a longer barrel is one of the more overhyped possibilities. Remotely possible with teeny powder charges of fast powder and very long barrels, but one never gets best performance shooting unsuitable ammo, anyway.

And, even if you do "lose" a handful of fps, so what?? By the time (distance down the barrel) it happens, IF it happens, you've already gained a more than slightly significant increase over a shorter barrel anyway.

The slower pistol powders (2400, 296/H110 and AA No.9 to name the usual I use) will give you as much as 5-600fps increase from a carbine length barrel (18-20") over a 6" pistol barrel.

Specific to the Speer .357 125gr JHP the difference in drop at 250yds (from a 50yd zero) is about 26" more drop from the 6" barrel at max load levels.

The problem with driving the pistol bullets that fast is primarily one of hyper expansion, but accuracy issues MAY also result in individual guns and bullet combinations.

IF you're only shooting targets, post impact performance is irrelevant. If you're shooting game, its vital.

 

[ballardw]

The 20" vs 16" barrel and velocity sounds like the .22LR perhaps. I remember some discussion about that when I was shooting small bore matches and the longer barrel was to provide a longer sight radius to aid accuracy when shooting iron sights. The powder charges basically quit burning around the 16 to 18" range, IIRC.

 

[Unclenick]

…have read a lot about 20” actually losing velocity over a 16” due to friction, powder burning out etc, etc.

If you use a modest load made with a very fast powder, you may see that effect, but for H110/296, the only thing that would cause the longer barrel to shoot slower is the longer barrel having a looser chamber or bore or a much longer and looser throat. Consider, for example, the standard velocity 22 Long Rifle, as Ballardw says, generally doesn't stop gaining velocity until it is around 18" or so down the barrel (16" for pistol match or 19" for 40-grain high velocity). At that point, the expansion ratio is over 40:1. You'd have to make a 44 Magnum barrel 30" long to get to that kind of expansion ratio.

 

[TX Nimrod]

… have read a lot about 20” actually losing velocity over a 16” due to friction, powder burning out, etc, etc.…

That idea may come from a superficial viewing of the chart below from the “Ballistics by the Inch” website. It does show an apparent loss of velocity with longer barrels. I say apparent because on closer inspection the table’s data is crap. Velocities are all over the place for some loads, likely due to too small sampling sizes producing statistically inaccurate “average velocities”. Apparently their critical thinking skills are lacking, or they just don’t care if the data is accurate. I have little faith in the data provided on that site due to common anomalies like this.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html

{Board policy on posting copyrighted materials.}

 

[Scribe]

Many thanks to all who replied. This has been very useful.

 

[stagpanther]

I'm going to make an additional observation which I hope unclenick and 44 amp might consider and comment on. My feeling is there are more factors than just velocity that are going to mess with your long range results using the pistol bullets.

Typically you're starting out with a fairly slow twist barrel and in lighter weight shorter bullets with less baring surface--and a drag factor with a fast decay in velocity. My guess is that the bullet needs to be bigger for better stability out to longer ranges, but that starts encroaching on case capacity. Somewhere in that flight to longer distance the bullet is likely going to drop through the transonic range.

Interesting proposition though, my question to the OP is have you tried it with your rossi's--and what happened? I have 2 of the same 16" 44 mag carbines myself and they shoot the 240 xtp's well with warm H110 loads.

 

[TX Nimrod]

IHMSA silhouette shooters proved decades ago that “short” pistol bullets can be highly accurate out to at least 220 yards given a good barrel and a developed load. I watched many of my fellow competitors center-punch rams and chickens at the 200 meter rail using 220 and 240 grain bullets in their .44 Magnum revolvers and Contenders. Sure some used heavier bullets, but that was to improve ram knockdown, not accuracy.




.

 

[stagpanther]

IHMSA silhouette shooters proved decades ago that “short” pistol bullets can be highly accurate out to at least 220 yards given a good barrel and a developed load. I watched many of my fellow competitors center-punch rams and chickens at the 200 meter rail using 220 and 240 grain bullets in their .44 Magnum revolvers and Contenders. Sure some used heavier bullets, but that was to improve ram knockdown, not accuracy.

Any particular loads--and were these standard pressures? I din't say it couldn't be done--but likely would be challenging--at least in my mind anything approaching a group at 300 yds. On the other hand--I'm awfully tempted to try myself. I wonder if I need to get an exemption for crossing PSA (positive control airspace) when holding over for elevation?

 

[44 AMP]

Typically you're starting out with a fairly slow twist barrel and in lighter weight shorter bullets with less baring surface--and a drag factor with a fast decay in velocity. My guess is that the bullet needs to be bigger for better stability out to longer ranges, but that starts encroaching on case capacity. Somewhere in that flight to longer distance the bullet is likely going to drop through the transonic range.

You've got an understanding of the basics, but I think you're making a mistake applying long range rifle standards to pistol bullets. Shooting pistol bullets from carbines gets you up into low end rifle speeds, initially, but they are still pistol bullets, which generally means short, fat, and blunt compared to most rifle rounds.

Absolutely, somewhere out there the bullet is going to drop through the transonic range. ASSUMING its supersonic at the muzzle to begin with. The question that matters is, "will that matter"??

Shooting a ,30 rifle at 800 yds, its a valid concern. Shooting a pistol caliber carbine at 300? Not so much.

My pickup truck won't turn a 10sec 1/4 mile, but on the other hand, my car won't haul a cord of wood....there's no free lunch, and one shouldn't expect things to be what they aren't.