Lead Toxicity Risk in Casting and in Cleaning Cases

[Unclenick]

New (as of this posting time) member Orisolo provided a link to a University of Michigan document on procedures for avoiding toxic lead exposure when casting bullets or from primer dust and residue, as are commonly kicked up when cleaning cases in dry media. Since questions about this come up periodically, I feel it is useful to make it into a sticky of its own. I'm going to try to get permission to host a copy directly on this forum. Until that succeeds or fails, here's a link to the source:

With kind permission from oem.msu.edu, the file is now hosted here and may be clicked on below for downloading.

 

[Slamfire]

That is an excellent report though I will quibble a bit on that link, lead may fume at 900 F but there are lead particles in the air at all temperatures, and they vastly increase in quantity as lead melts and the temperature of the melt increases. Just Google Dalton’s Law of Partial Pressures.

Now remember the current lead vapor exposure limit, in an 8 hour period is 50 micrograms per cubic meter. This data from a 60’s report over various casting pots shows lead concentration in milligrams. Just multiply by 1000 to convert to micrograms.





It is my considered opinion, after a review of this report, http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADB018797 is that people don’t appreciate the number of lead particles that are left in the air after shooting lead bullets with lead styphnate primers in a poorly ventilated range.

 

[snuffy]

Oh good, now we have a moderator that's buying into the EPA BS about lead will kill you dead in minutes hype. Just because it comes from some college, does not make it true.

Every thing in that link is a repeat of every fear that's been said about handling lead over the past decade. When are we going to realize it's just the liberal left magnifying the supposed/minor fact about lead's toxicity? Clue: to remove the bullet from common use because it's made of lead. Can't happen? Um, take a look at Californictate, a myth that buzzards are dying of lead ingested from gut piles has resulted in banning all bullets made with a lead core.

We all know that most bullets that hit an animal go straight through, to be lost in the background.

Reading those lies in that report, I should have been dead 20 years ago. I started casting when I was 23, I'm 67 now. And I've been shooting lead projectiles for just as long. Also loading and tumbling brass.

That cover of what ever book it is, is misleading to say the least. Lead DOES NOT GLOW when it's poured! That's a picture of iron or steel being poured. If the cover is that bad, I would doubt everything that's said inside.

 

[Unclenick]

Nope. Not buying the EPA BS which extends to metallic lead bullets in the ground, which we know from all the buried Civil War projectiles we keep digging up in farm fields and because of all the veterans of that war and others who've lived long lives with bullets still in their bodies, is not the cause of a problem. Water soluble lead compounds and oxide, as in lead paint, whether airborne or ingested, can be, though, and thats where primer residue and oxidized fine particles from vapor can be an issue it can't hurt to be aware of.

Questions about this are recycled periodically, so it seemed to me a good prophylactic to provide a resource that makes suggestions about how to minimize exposure. I don't know what the different temperature equilibrium rates are for airborne lead vapor are. None of us casts at temperatures as high as 900°, obviously, but there will randomly be molecules that pick up enough energy to leave the liquid state at any temperature above absolute zero, even sublimating from solid to vapor every once in awhile. It just isn't normally often enough to have a measurable consequence in that case.

I suspect most lead vapor, like any heavy gas, will be in a low lying layer near the melt pot surface that either turns to oxide or condenses and then falls back onto the pot surface. Nonetheless, the cleaning precautions can't hurt anything.

 

[mehavey]

EXTRACT AT THE BASIC LEVEL: Bottom Line: It was a decent article, with thoughtful input
-- though w/ a bit of overkill in materials handling.


Preferable location is outdoors; on hard floors, without carpet, and surfaces that are easy to clean. (YUP)
Use lots of ventilation that exhausts air up and out, not around the room. [YUP]
Use damp materials to collect/sweep up floor so as to not put dust in the air. (YUP)
Don't use a vacuum that exhausts into your breathing area unless it has a HEPA filter. (YUP)
Use rubber gloves and dust mask with special filters for lead when handling solid lead ingots, bullets and dross. [YGBSM]

Myself? I cannoy imagine smelting anywhere but outdoors, and casting anywhere but either outdoors or just inside an open garage door.....

(After all these years, finding a new wife would eat into my free time.)

 

[snuffy]

LEAD HAZARDS FROM CASTING BULLETS
Preferable location is
outdoors or, if you must do
this indoors, make sure your
location is a separate area
away from kitchen or food
handling or storage.

As said, "outdoors if possible" Well in Wisconsin, that means about 75 days out of the year. Today would be just right, about 65 degrees, no rain, a good breeze.

Try casting in this;

Even recycling scrap lead would be very hard to do, keeping lead molten in 0 degrees takes a lot more heat!

Do this on hard floors, without carpet
and surfaces that are easy to clean.
Make some floor sweeping compound (sawdust,
peat, or dry dirt with an oil to make it
clumpy, not wet. Dust it on the floor to
catch the lead dust and keep it from getting
back up in the air.)

Cleaning? whats that? I occasionally run my shop vac over the floor. No hepa filter or outside exhaust. No floor model vacuums. They have beaters and an exposed rotor fan that may pop a lost primer. Good place to start a fire INSIDE the vac bag! Lots of air and dry stuff to burn! I DO have a rug in there, I'm planning on getting rid of it soon!

Use lots of ventilation that exhausts
air up and out, not around the room. A box
or desk fan is just as bad as poor
ventilation. Do not use home air systems
which blow dust throughout the home.

No ventilation in the winter, just a window open in the summer. A fan on ME, to keep me cool. All those elaborate hoods and fans blowing out a window are great for peace of mind, but not necessary.

Never eat, drink, chew gum or smoke
or have these items in the area. Lead will
settle on these objects and you will eat or
inhale the dust.

Great info, the basis of keeping lead out of your system. I do NOT agree that there's lead dust on everything. Just where does that "lead dust" come from?

Use rubber
gloves and dust mask
with special filters
for lead when handling
solid lead ingots, bullets and dross. Store
dross in a closed container.

Again, where does that lead dust come from. Later on in this they come out and say lead does NOT enter your body through the skin. So "rubber gloves,,,--- for what?

Melt lead below 900 degrees F

Good idea, but apparently the EPA has decreed that lead now exudes vapor below 1200 degrees. I cast normally at no more than 725 degrees, primarily because tin oxidizes at much more than 750, at least at a much higher rate. Just like years back the acceptable lead levels in the blood were under 40--- um (deciliters??) per--- million? Then it became under 20, now it's under ten. Prime example of a federal agency justifying their existence.

Do not sweep dry floors. Use a shop-vac with HEPA filterto vacuum up your area and your clothes once you are done. Don't use this vacuum for anything else. DO NOT use the house vacuum.

Again, I'm not a clean freak. I live alone, no kids, and I'm long past child bearing age. My dog doesn't come back to the loading room, licking the floor. The loading room is a back bedroom, hardly no one goes back there.

Wipe down your work areas after
casting
with a damp disposable cloth or
mop, using a two bucket system to keep
wash water separate from rinse water.

Yer kidding,, right? OCD folks to the rescue!
♦
Keep children and women of childbearing age clear of this smelting/casting/reloading area. Children are more likely to come in contact with dust
and get it in their mouths.
Very true, kids and women that MAY have one are in much higher risk of birth defects, and mental retardation.
♦
Launder clothing
worn during casting or
reloading separate of other laundry

Again ya gotta be kidding. If that were the case, you'd have to have a new washer each time you washed real dirty clothes of any type.

Shower off after smelting or casting
.
Be sure to wash your hair too. Always wash hands after handling lead, particularly before eating or smoking cigarettes

Aw come on! Nothing like belaboring a point!

 

[Rangefinder]

Where do I cast? In the closet with all the lights off so I can enjoy the warm glow of the 1500-degree molten metal. Don't worry, I lined the walls and ceiling with asbestos so I don't burn the house down, My third arm is growing in nicely, but the hair on my head has migrated to my back--thinking I'll just wait and see if it keeps moving down more before I go pick up a new pair of long-johns for next winter...

...Out in the shop with the bay doors open on each end, mainly because I like a little breeze. The rest is unimportant.

 

[Unclenick]

…I'm not a clean freak. I live alone, no kids, and I'm long past child bearing age.

I think that right there makes the biggest difference. Kids with developing central nervous systems are at the most risk. Recommended adult lead level limits are now at your first number, 20 micrograms per deciliter, and I'd bet that at our ages even higher levels don't predict anything serious happening to us that wasn't going to happen anyway. Its only for kids that the 10 mcg/dl level is the current standard.

I don't recall why the original standard was changed, but it may have been due to advances in the ability to detect effects rather than an anti-lead political agenda. But then again, it's coming from Washington, so its probably impossible to find out whether the cart preceded the horse or not. Both can be true at once in that town.

As to gloves, I suspect that's mainly for people who forget to wash their hands and who don't use a nail brush when they do. I wear welder's gloves with rubber bands around the cuffs when casting. Keeps the molten lead out. No rubber gloves underneath, though.

Wearing rubber gloves to do a clean-up makes washing your hands easier. You just take the gloves off from the cuffs so the outside winds up pulled into the inverted cuff, same as we were taught for preventing contamination by diseased blood and fluids in a first aid situation. Good trick. Maybe not essential, but good for the lazy in this instance.

As to dust, it can come from cutting sprues, dross, and other small actions, but I don't think the quantity is high. We had a member post who'd had a friend who could do lead testing go over his place. No unacceptable lead contamination was found his loading bench or around his casting gear, either. He only had serious lead compound dust contamination around his vibratory tumbler and where he separated his cases from the dry media. If there's one operation that ought to be done outdoors, case separation from dry media is probably the one to choose. There are a lot of water-soluble lead reaction products present in primer dust. The guys who are now on the stainless steel pin and wet cleaning solution bandwagon have got that solved, as do the ultrasonic case cleaning advocates. By those methods, it pretty much all flushes down the drain. And since citric acid in the cleaning solutions forms a chelate with lead, I suspect its environmentally more friendly, too.

Again, the point of posting that documant is to instruct people on how to minimize exposure and contamination. If they have small kids, in particular, they'll probably want to go the extra mile, even if it's more than we in the geezer collective find strictly necessary to do.

 

[orisolo]

I'm happy to read that my post helped ("opened eyes" for some of us.
I do not appreciate the anti-lead campaign.Lead was here since almost the beginning of written history and somehow we manage to be born after thousand of "lead poisoned year".

On the other hand "better safe then sorry" is not a bad approach, especially if one have kids (or grand kids) roaming the house.

Here is what I do today:

I melt lead only outside.

I tumble the brass outside

I have a lead mask for the dry tumble and when get "lazy" at least make sure the wind is going the other way.

I try to tumble as much as i can in SS wet tumble (no dust good results).

I use disposable glove when handling lead ingot or dirty fired brass.

I wash my dirty hands with D-Lead soap (not cheap but visually at least works very good).


Things i don't do (yet..):

I don't glow in the dark

I didn't quit handling lead, brass etc...

If I see LEAD I'm not running away screaming and looking for cover (unless it is shaped like a grenade

I'm not actively trying to depart this world early, who knows what is waiting on the other side.

Happy casting and shooting

 

[Unclenick]

I was unaware of D-lead soap. Removes most other heavy metals, too, apparently. I quickly discovered the prices for this stuff are all over the map. You can pay $9 for 8 oz. on Amazon, or $4 for 8 oz. at UniqueTek while Dillon wants $3 for 8 oz. Grainger wants $41 for a gallon. UniqueTek wants $24 for a gallon. No idea what the shipping would add in any of the above cases, but the gallon container would seem like the economic way to go if you have a soap dispenser handy. The bathroom kind are are cheap at Wally world, IIRC.

 

[Krcullen]

Hello all - I’m looking for advice regarding purchasing a home where we noticed a lot of casting materials/equipment in the basement. I have no idea where and how the homeowner works. Unfortunately the homeowners made a strong push to sell the home as-is, and while the clause was cleared we are naturally suspicious. Is it possible there will be lead contamination in the air/HVAC system? We have children ages 7 and 10 who will likely be playing in the basement, kicking up dust and being kids.

Yes, I am totally ignorant on the topic. If I felt the homeowners were trustworthy I would simply ask, but unfortunately this is not the case. Hoping some of the experts here can shed some light on the issue.

 

[Chainsaw.]

Yes you should be cautious when it come to your most precious of assets, your kiddos. Look up an industrial hygenist or a risk assessor in your area. It'll cost ya a few hundred bucks to test the house but your families health is easily worth that. Do it.

 

[Unclenick]

Agree. Kids nervous systems are a work in process and are much more sensitive than adults are to this stuff.

I will say that we had a member who had a friend who did lead testing professionally and had this friend go over the loading and casting areas in his home, but the only place any significant contamination was found was around his case cleaner where he separated tumbled cases from the cleaning media. Again, this is because metallic lead isn't a big hazard. It's the water and readily stomach-acid-soluble compounds that pose a risk. For case cleaning it is lead styphnate combustion products from primers that cause it to register when lead testing. But that experience is no guarantee someone else won't be doing something funny that makes it an issue.

If I bought a home where someone had been casting indoors, I would be inclined to have the basement steam cleaned and, assuming the concrete floor is exposed, paint with an epoxy garage floor finish to trap anything the steam cleaning may have missed, and cement block wall would get etched and painted with waterproofing paint anyway.

 

[tangolima]

I myself definitely won't buy that house.

I totally agree with unclenick's comments on primer residue. It is my most feared element when it comes to lead poisoning. So sad a lot of folks don't know or refuse to know. They literally have picnic on the firing line with their kids.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

 

[Don Fischer]

I'm 72 and been reloading and casting for close to 50yrs now. Lead and primer residue hasn't killed me yet. How do those people explain that. I suppose they could bother some people. Hell when I was a kid, I chewed the lead paint off my crib and lived to tell about it!

 

[David R]

I was a caster and shooter for years.

In the end, I was going to the indoor range every day at lunch time to try some loads. I did not always turn the ventilation on because it sucked the heat out.

I cast in my garage, reloaded in my bedroom and had brass all over the place.

Got tested for the first time. 48! I stopped casting and shooting for a few years, it eventually came down on its own to the high teens. I had cleaned up my home and garage.

My doctor checks it every year. After the first few years, she wrote "Chronic" on my chart. I did not like that.

Its been 11 years since., I still shoot, but I buy my bullets powder or Hi Tec coated. I wash my hands more often and shoot a lot more 22 than I used to.

It stays between 10 and 20.

No more indoor center fire pistol matches.

I only write this to show it can happen.

Some of my symptoms were aching joints, and my pay attention was not working well.

David

 

[tangolima]

I'm 72 and been reloading and casting for close to 50yrs now. Lead and primer residue hasn't killed me yet. How do those people explain that. I suppose they could bother some people. Hell when I was a kid, I chewed the lead paint off my crib and lived to tell about it!

I wouldn't mind explaining one more time if you are 7 years old. 72 years old? You don't need no explanation, nor convincing.

-TL

 

[OzeanJaeger]

It's well documented, dare I say beyond dispute, that children and young adults who's growth plates are still open, are at far, far, far, greater danger from lead than adults.

Lead is toxic in small quantities to humans, but it must get into the bloodstream to be so. So are a wide variety of household chemicals that are equally or more toxic. If they made bullets out of any of them we would have an equally endless stream of "studies" screaming their toxicity.

If there weren't a political agenda I would be much more prone to pay close attention. Since there is an undeniable political agenda I take the hyperventilating with a grain of salt, just as I do "AGCC".

 

[hagar]

When was 12, I melted and casted lead sinkers, lots and lots of them. And done it indoors on my mothers stove when she was playing tennis.. I dug up lead .22 bullets from the rimfire range and sold the sinkers to my school friends for 5 cents, and made good money with it. About 20 years ago I had my lead levels tested, and I came in far below the US national average.

 

[Marco Califo]

I'm 72 and been reloading and casting for close to 50yrs now. Lead and primer residue hasn't killed me yet. How do those people explain that. I suppose they could bother some people. Hell when I was a kid, I chewed the lead paint off my crib and lived to tell about it!

No, it did not kill you, (rapid onset lead poisoning by large caliber handguns will do that), but perhaps it "enabled" some degree of long term cognitive decline, manifesting in your disputing, denying professional research, published facts, and significant changes in public polices, laws and regulations. It is NOT all about YOU. I do not personally care if you pour milk on your used media and eat it for breakfast (enough sugar will fix everything, right). Those at greatest risk, are not YOU (although you are the cause), it is developing children, future occupants of any contaminated building, and the environment we all live in. They stopped putting lead in paints and gasoline for a reason. One of the factors leading to the fall of one of our planets greatest governments to ever exist and govern huge parts of the world (the Roman Empire) was lead used to line their glorious water aqueducts, inadvertently poisoning everyone. But that didn't kill Julius, Augustus, Nero, or any other Caesars. Metallic mouth tastes is a well-documented symptom of lead poisoning that many Roman era writers mentioned, without understanding the cause.

Detection of lead residue in a building can trigger professional cleaning or abatement of the hazard (tearing down and remove all structures by the county). Many buildings with asbestos are abandoned or torn down; my point on asbestos is that remediation can cost more than the property is worth. Farmers Insurance former Home Office on Wilshire has asbestos and they left after 75+ years. The Scottish Rite Masonic Temple down the street met the same fate. I have personally worked in buildings in Los Angeles that get tested annually, to see if they are poisoning workers. Any family looking to buy your building after you are gone would be well served in testing the property to detect contamination, and avoiding purchase. Contamination is Yes or No. If it is yes, how much comes into play.

I do not shoot cast bullets. I cannot at indoor ranges. They do not allow them even with ventilation systems (legal liability). Also, bullets with any exposed lead (hollow points) are also not allowed. You cannot hunt and have bullets with any lead in them in my state. I could at my outdoor range, but why? I will never carry lead bullets and it is simpler to not have another category of bullets across calibers. I once cast heavy 1, 2, + pounds each for fishing sinkers for deep water rock cod, and almost got kicked out of a very nice apartment complex for it. They were NOT happy. I had to scrub my balcony, and then we got heavy rain, so they let it go at that. I believe it is very likely that any home melting of lead will be regulated out of existence in the United States with 20 years. Battery factories are being shut down now in California because they emit lead vapor into residential neighborhoods.

Lead bullets are easy to avoid: do not use them. Lead primer residue is actually very easy to avoid: clean your used brass (I deprime first with gloves on) in hot dishwasher detergent water, and/or tumble wet or dry, and dispose of the waste properly. It is not hard or expensive.

My grandfather smoked non-filter Chesterfields and sipped a whole lot of Bourbon. It didn't kill him either. Not until he was 86, and developed lung cancer that metastasized to his liver and other organs. The cigarettes and bourbon didn't kill him. The cancer did. So, alcohol and cigarettes are safe, perfectly safe.