Ken Hackathorn. “Red dots are unnecessary and are a fad”

shafter

New member
It wasn't all that long ago when red dots on rifles were considered a fad. Nowadays the advantage is indisputable and it's rare for a rifle to not have an optic of some kind.

I think that's where we are with pistols now. They're the future and the day will come when most people will be using them.
 

Shadow9mm

New member
It depends on the specific application. for competition, I suspect it is NOT a fad or unnecessary if you want to win. For daily or combat use, its still quite expensive, and still has issues like the lens fogging, breaking, or getting obscured with water or dirt.
 

TunnelRat

New member
It depends on the specific application. for competition, I suspect it is NOT a fad or unnecessary if you want to win. For daily or combat use, its still quite expensive, and still has issues like the lens fogging, breaking, or getting obscured with water or dirt.


I agree with you on fogging and obscuration, the former more if you are going in and out of areas with notably different levels of humidity and temperature (I’ve talked to officers from the south that mentioned fogging being such a problem that they actually put a cloth over the lens of the red dot when riding in a car with the AC on). For obscuration, in the event the lens is completely blocked you can use the housing itself as a rough aiming device. It is in no way ideal, but it is an option.

The durability is actually surprisingly good in a number of cases. Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics has become noted in the red dot “community” for relatively harsh testing of red dots. His baseline for a duty optic is 2000 rd fired and four shoulder height drops of a pistol with red dot and the optic impacting concrete, asphalt, or some other hard surface. A number of them have done very well, some with minor cracks of the lens that still allow use of the red dot. Others have failed to the point of the lens shattering. He has one RMR with 20,000 rd fired, 40 shoulder height drop tests, and no breakages and no shift in zero.

https://youtu.be/2yzpJBrLU5U

You mentioned cost. RMRs aren’t overly cheap (most of the ones I’ve bought were ~$420). Is it worth it? He has also tested Holosun optics in the range of $200-$300 that have also held up very well. Now they’re made in China, and many may not like that, but if a person has a limited budget, it’s an option (I have a number of them myself, in full disclosure).

I have done a lot of full day shooting courses with pistols with red dots, over a dozen now. I have seen surprisingly few failures, and the ones I have seen were almost all users who didn’t torque the optic properly and apply some form of Loctite (there is a learning curve here). The worst experience I had with a red dot was a two day pistol course with Kyle Lamb, where it rained heavily the second half of the day. This taught me the value of an enclosed red dot, and the value for officers of a duty holster that has a moveable cover for the optic (Safariland 6390RDS was what I was using). Now up close it was still usable, but at distance our dots were scattered notably and even using irons through the lens became hard as both sides of the lens were covered in rain drops. For someone carrying concealed drawing the pistol from under a garment and likely firing for a matter of seconds it may not be an issue, but there are real environmental limitations that need to be considered.
 

seanc

New member
InRangeTV's review of the DeltaPoint Micro, Carl's review begins at the 10:20 mark:
https://youtu.be/HWWzzSySxIA

It was nice to see reviews like this after I bought mine. I saw a lot of negative reviews that seemed to be based on people that didn't actually shoot a gun with one mounted on it, just making guesses at why they didn't like it. Low over-bore and sealed emitter with the quality of Leupold. Lots to like, even when/if the battery dies.
 

CDW4ME

New member
I've got red dots on three handguns; I think the dot is advantageous. (took 600+ rounds for me to think that)
 

MarkCO

New member
Eh, I don't prefer dots. Added bulk (getting better) and failure modes. But then I don't need dots (yet) either. I can still shoot very good groups out to 50 yards with irons and my 55 year old eyes. Large (18x24 inch) steel to 100 is not a problem at all.

But I have two friends who have crossed over into NEEDING dots due to eye issues. It is not an easy transition.

There is probably a distance where dot and no dot are the same speed for a good shooter. Is that 5, 10, 15 yards? I’m not sure.

Yes, there is. And there is a distance at which good shooters start to use their sights. Acceptable sight picture is a thing (Jerry Miculek has a good video on it) and good shooters with Iron sighted guns are actually faster than a similar dot shooter at very close targets. See brown and pound is a common phrase used for the under 5 yard competition targets. The iron shooter puts the outline of the slide on the target, the dot shooter needs to see the brown in the window.

But, as things get worse, the ability to see the irons, combined with target ID becomes an issue. You MUST have target ID, seeing the sights perfectly is less, but still important.

I have started to practice with a dot pistol for the potential need down the road. Glad to have options.
 

TunnelRat

New member
MarkCO said:
But I have two friends who have crossed over into NEEDING dots due to eye issues. It is not an easy transition.

I've seen this be true, but I'll say in my experience it very much depends on the shooter. If you have a very good natural index with the pistol then generally the trouble of "finding the dot" is a lot less. I have done a fair amount of reflexive shooting over the years and I never found I had to really search for the dot, but others did. What was harder for me personally was to learn what was an acceptable sight picture with a red dot to achieve a desired accuracy. At close distances if you have that window on the target then basically as soon as you see the color of the dot you can press the trigger (sort of similar to your example with iron sighted shooting).

MarkCO said:
The iron shooter puts the outline of the slide on the target, the dot shooter needs to see the brown in the window.

I don't know that this is absolutely needed. You can shoot reflexively or index based off of the slide with a red dot. You don't have to use the window. That may depend somewhat on how your dot is set up on the given pistol, but I've definitely done it with my own pistol with a red dot. What can be hard is training yourself to ignore the dot if you've become so focused on acquiring the dot all the time. I find with irons it's a bit easier to lead them blend into the background.
 
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obiwan1

New member
I think it's all about the proposed usage of the gun. For competitors I think there would probably be some advantages. For CCW guns maybe not so much. If you ever HAD to shoot defensively at 50 yards (think of the mall shooting where the young hero shot at 40 yards) then it would be beneficial. For carrying something like a P365, GX4, Hellcat in a somewhat NPE and your hypothetical bad guy would be less than 10 yards away then I don't see much benefit in a dot sight. Especially if you've been shooting for many years and are used to finding the front sight or sighting down the slide.
At this point in time, even with my very senior citizen eyes, for CCW, I'll pass on the dots.
Question: are there pocket holsters designed for dot sighted micro 9s?
 

TunnelRat

New member
Question: are there pocket holsters designed for dot sighted micro 9s?

I don’t pocket carry, but in general holsters made for pistol with red dots simply have more material removed so as to not cover or fold onto the top of the slide. I don’t see why you couldn’t make a pocket holster for a red dot, but then the housing of the dot might snag on the pocket opening (some have pretty sharp angles, some less so).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

gsparesa

New member
I find this thread much like a debate between manual and automatic transmissions in automobiles. It appears the older I get, the more I appreciate automatic transmissions (red/green dots).
 

Sgt127

New member
I’ve got a red dot on my AR. And, on a Ruger 10-22 takedown.

I do not “think” of the red dot as being a part of the gun. I machine it actually projected on the target. Like a Laser. And, with a three point hold on a long gun, the red dot comes up quite naturally.

On a pistol, the few times I tried them, I was fishing for the red dot much longer than I should have.

With practice, I think I’d get the hang of it. I don’t see any downside. As long as you can see the irons through the red dot if it it fails. My AR is co witnessed to my front post so if the red dot quits, I just have a very big ghost ring rear.

Also, we are in the age of electronics. People will naturally gravitate to the idea of a bright red dot as an aiming point instead of that little block of steel at he end of the barrel. It “has” to be better.

For me. Not yet. May there come a time? Possibly.
 

jmr40

New member
They used to say repeating rifles were a fad too.

FWIW, I haven't found a dot sight for a rifle that works for me yet. I haven't tried one on a handgun yet, but can see the potential.
 

JustJake

New member
Ken Hackathorn. “Red dots are unnecessary and are a fad”
I agree. Irons are all you need if you practice.

RDs on pistols are a shooting crutch for the once-a-month range Fuddleys, and allows them to feel like one of the Cool Kids they watch on YouTube. :rolleyes:
 

Rob228

New member
I agree. Irons are all you need if you practice.

RDs on pistols are a shooting crutch for the once-a-month range Fuddleys, and allows them to feel like one of the Cool Kids they watch on YouTube

Funny, because if you watch the video he says the exact opposite.
 

JDBerg

New member
If you’ve been shooting long enough you probably know what kind of sights work and don’t work for your intended purpose. I think I know what works for me for practically every 9mm Glock I own or plan to own, a F.O. front & blind battle-sight rear. Except the Gen4 Glock 21, which for some reason that I’m not complaining about, shoots fine with the stock sights.
 
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