Ken Hackathorn. “Red dots are unnecessary and are a fad”
- Thread starter Sigkid79
- Start date
I just watched that last night.
Being in the middle of the switch, he’s not too wrong. I’m getting pretty good with it, but I’m pretty sure I’m still following my front sight out until the dot appears.
He’s also right that you have to learn how to recover from recoil. You have to do that purely by shooting. At least IME.
Where I struggle a bit is the statement that there is no value 0-10 yards. I agree with the sentiment though. As you get closer, aiming can become much less precise. There is probably a distance where dot and no dot are the same speed for a good shooter. Is that 5, 10, 15 yards? I’m not sure.
It does improve my speed of accurate engagement with a compact pistol. Meaning I can shorten my shot to shot time on small targets at 10-15 yards.
This is my experience.
Being in the middle of the switch, he’s not too wrong. I’m getting pretty good with it, but I’m pretty sure I’m still following my front sight out until the dot appears.
He’s also right that you have to learn how to recover from recoil. You have to do that purely by shooting. At least IME.
Where I struggle a bit is the statement that there is no value 0-10 yards. I agree with the sentiment though. As you get closer, aiming can become much less precise. There is probably a distance where dot and no dot are the same speed for a good shooter. Is that 5, 10, 15 yards? I’m not sure.
It does improve my speed of accurate engagement with a compact pistol. Meaning I can shorten my shot to shot time on small targets at 10-15 yards.
This is my experience.
For my shooting and with my eyesight red dots are worth it over iron sights. It’s easier for me to acquire a dot than it is for me to acquire iron sights (due to vision issues), and I can stay target focused in my shooting to a greater degree with a red dot, which I think is advantageous from a defensive standpoint. If Hackathorn thinks differently that’s fair and he certainly has experience, but it doesn’t change what works for me personally.
There are a number of people in the industry that endorse red dots, but I don’t want to go down the appeal to authority rabbit hole. Hackathorn makes an effort to flush out a number of points, but so do others on the other side of the argument. The cynic in me also wonders if the fact that this video is being posted on the channel of a manufacturer who, relative to the entire product line, doesn’t have a ton of red dot mounting options means this might be a way to deflect from that fact and boost or continue sales, and of course confirmation bias is a thing and their existing customers might like to hear they are right (the comments section of that video seems to back up this last part). But that could be my own confirmation bias popping up its head.
In terms of fads, that may be possible but if so it’s a fad that’s going to continue for years. In the firearms courses I take every year I have seen an explosion in the use of red dots, over a relatively short period of time. Red dots on pistols are now the norm when I take a course, rather than the exception, and even at the private range I go to that is becoming true as well. In the last pistol course I took 2 out of 12 people were running irons, and that has been true in other courses this year. I get that to many it seems like people want to be “cool”, and that’s what I thought initially as well. Once I put the time in on red dots and saw the benefits for me personally then I realized that many were doing this for meaningful reasons, not just to fit in with the crowd. Red dots on pistols continue to improve and decrease in price and unless some technology can come in and offer the same benefits, I don’t see people eschewing that technology and going back to irons. If anything it will be an arms race of sorts in terms of red dot technology.
There are a number of people in the industry that endorse red dots, but I don’t want to go down the appeal to authority rabbit hole. Hackathorn makes an effort to flush out a number of points, but so do others on the other side of the argument. The cynic in me also wonders if the fact that this video is being posted on the channel of a manufacturer who, relative to the entire product line, doesn’t have a ton of red dot mounting options means this might be a way to deflect from that fact and boost or continue sales, and of course confirmation bias is a thing and their existing customers might like to hear they are right (the comments section of that video seems to back up this last part). But that could be my own confirmation bias popping up its head.
In terms of fads, that may be possible but if so it’s a fad that’s going to continue for years. In the firearms courses I take every year I have seen an explosion in the use of red dots, over a relatively short period of time. Red dots on pistols are now the norm when I take a course, rather than the exception, and even at the private range I go to that is becoming true as well. In the last pistol course I took 2 out of 12 people were running irons, and that has been true in other courses this year. I get that to many it seems like people want to be “cool”, and that’s what I thought initially as well. Once I put the time in on red dots and saw the benefits for me personally then I realized that many were doing this for meaningful reasons, not just to fit in with the crowd. Red dots on pistols continue to improve and decrease in price and unless some technology can come in and offer the same benefits, I don’t see people eschewing that technology and going back to irons. If anything it will be an arms race of sorts in terms of red dot technology.
ammo.crafter
New member
dot dot dot
Tunnel Rat is correct. Those w visual issues rely on red dots as iron sights are difficult use.
At +75 years old, I would not be able to be a competitive shooter without the dot!
Tunnel Rat is correct. Those w visual issues rely on red dots as iron sights are difficult use.
At +75 years old, I would not be able to be a competitive shooter without the dot!
This is a fair point. Adding a red dot doesn’t mean you can no longer use irons, except in very limited circumstances.
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Willie Lowman
New member
I shot a red dot Glock 34 in competition for a year. It did me no good a close targets out to 10 yards. But the targets out at 25 yards, I was much more accurate and my scores showed it.
I did switch back to irons but only because my CZ TS2 (witch is superior to the Glock in many ways) does not have an optic mount.
I did switch back to irons but only because my CZ TS2 (witch is superior to the Glock in many ways) does not have an optic mount.
Double Naught Spy
New member
When people are critical of something and one of their comments is that the something is a 'fad' or 'gimmick,' I start to question the person's evaluation as being more emotional than factual. Such comments shows that not only does he not like the red dot sight, but he wishes to convince people not to buy it for emotional reasons, just in case his other arguments don't work.
With that said, I don't like red dot sights on pistols. He and I have some of the same complaints. However, the difference is that I don't care if you have one on yours if it works well for you, then that is great. I just won't have one one mine.
I get it. He doesn't like them and that is fine for him. As for being unnecessary, there are lots of things with guns that are unnecessary, but that doesn't mean that they aren't well liked or useful.
With that said, I don't like red dot sights on pistols. He and I have some of the same complaints. However, the difference is that I don't care if you have one on yours if it works well for you, then that is great. I just won't have one one mine.
I get it. He doesn't like them and that is fine for him. As for being unnecessary, there are lots of things with guns that are unnecessary, but that doesn't mean that they aren't well liked or useful.
44caliberkid
New member
I use red dots on AR-15 tactical carbines, just needing solid center mass hits from 25 to 100 yards. I don’t use them on pistols. I’m still good with irons and prefer them. I tried one on my Raging Bull 44 Magnum, it was a 3 MOA dot, but it opened my groups by 50% at 25 yards. I went back to a 2x cross hair scope for more precision. But certainly, if a dot works for you and your purposes, use one. No judgement here.
Doc Intrepid
New member
I thought the video made some decent points. In the final analysis, (as stated) if you are the type of shooter who dedicates a large amount of time and focus on improving your shooting, a red dot sight may work very well for you. If you are the type of shooter who rarely fires more than box or two of ammunition per year, probably not. A great deal depends on what you want it for, and whether you spend the time necessary to become proficient with it. No judgement here either. It will work better for some than others.
stagpanther
New member
I think he did that just to throw his competitors he shoots against.
I did not take the vid as a for/against so much as a "think about the pluses and minuses." I'm not a proficient handgun guy, but I do have my share of them and have a couple with pretty good quality red dots on them. I agree with the quote in the video--"less is better" and find red dots in general on a handgun to be a PITA, I've never gotten my head completely around extra junk riding on the slide. My personal low-level experience is that they do make accurate shots at longer distances easier--once you get the knack of bringing them up into the sight picture efficiently, which for me is completely different process from shooting irons and is a re-learn. A take-away for me might be I would be better off committing to one or the other as a non 1 percenter since "autoticity" would be bungled by not shooting both techniques very frequently.
I did not take the vid as a for/against so much as a "think about the pluses and minuses." I'm not a proficient handgun guy, but I do have my share of them and have a couple with pretty good quality red dots on them. I agree with the quote in the video--"less is better" and find red dots in general on a handgun to be a PITA, I've never gotten my head completely around extra junk riding on the slide. My personal low-level experience is that they do make accurate shots at longer distances easier--once you get the knack of bringing them up into the sight picture efficiently, which for me is completely different process from shooting irons and is a re-learn. A take-away for me might be I would be better off committing to one or the other as a non 1 percenter since "autoticity" would be bungled by not shooting both techniques very frequently.
Red dots are here to stay, because people think that it helps their aim.
I would have a red dot myself, on a pistol. It should be pretty easy to learn how to shoot it. Even with a dead battery, you can point shoot.
Note: At time point 18:00 minutes or so, he talks about the .40 being a trend. But I have a .40, and I bought it last year, because it’s a good round.
I would have a red dot myself, on a pistol. It should be pretty easy to learn how to shoot it. Even with a dead battery, you can point shoot.
Note: At time point 18:00 minutes or so, he talks about the .40 being a trend. But I have a .40, and I bought it last year, because it’s a good round.
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lee n. field
New member
I think he's right about it being a fad. But, some of the things he identifies as past & now passé fads, are things I continue to use.
The red-dot sights have their rightful place for an intended purpose. The comp guys make good use out of these no doubt about that. I would listen to anything that Hackathorn or Vickers had to say on YouTube. Because those guys know how to shoot with or without the red-dot. There is another YouTuber who shall go unnamed and this banana slaps a red dot on every blasted gun he gets his hands on, before he even shoots a few thou rounds through them. He shows off all of his fancy gear except he never shows his targets. And I’ll bet those look like Swiss cheese.
Okay so I finally watched the whole video and at absolutely no point does he make a statement even resembling that. He does say that if you are one of the 99% of "shooters" who shoot 1-200 rounds a year that you will not get anything out of using a red dot.
People on this board complain about news networks selling false information, but the title of this post is blatantly false.
When the truth is inconvenient, just change the truth.
Hackathorn is generally even keeled. Most of the people in the industry have learned over time to not be completely dismissive of something. But again, confirmation bias is a thing and people can sometimes hear what they want to hear (I do it too).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
“Red dots are unnecessary and are a fad”
Why use quotes for YOUR interpretation of what Hack said? He covered the subject well, every point pro/con was valid and I agree. At no point did the above quote come out of his mouth in that video.
The point I got from him was, if like him, you learned to shoot on irons, your default muscle-memory will need to be re-trained to adjust to the red dot's over-bore offset. He's right. He also said you really won't be proficient with it with just dry fire, you're going to need to relearn recoil and getting back on your sights. He's right again.
What if you have a new shooter that has no iron sight muscle memory to overcome? Red dots will be their natural point of aim. Nothing to overcome.
He specifically states that he doesn't know if it's just a fad. Some of his examples of "fads" were adjustable sights (fad), semi-auto 9mm pistols replacing revolvers for LE (not a fad) and .40 S&W (not a fan of .40 S&W, but I don't understand why he calls it a fad).
I have 2 types of red dots, Sig Zero on a G19 and it took about a case to get used to it. I don't have the years or miles that Hack has, so it took fewer rounds for me to relearn my hold. Then I got a Leupold Delta Point last spring for my G30S. The red dot sits right on top of my front sight, it's a closed emitter and that G30S is now my regular carry gun. This past weekend, I was able to go back and forth between the G30S and my Shield 9mm without any issues. My range will open up their steel targets again soon, so I'll be able to open up on both again and get that valuable training in. Last spring, I was able to do well with either the G19 or the G30S, switching from one to the other. I think Hack's message is: You need to train! Can't argue with that.
Why use quotes for YOUR interpretation of what Hack said? He covered the subject well, every point pro/con was valid and I agree. At no point did the above quote come out of his mouth in that video.
The point I got from him was, if like him, you learned to shoot on irons, your default muscle-memory will need to be re-trained to adjust to the red dot's over-bore offset. He's right. He also said you really won't be proficient with it with just dry fire, you're going to need to relearn recoil and getting back on your sights. He's right again.
What if you have a new shooter that has no iron sight muscle memory to overcome? Red dots will be their natural point of aim. Nothing to overcome.
He specifically states that he doesn't know if it's just a fad. Some of his examples of "fads" were adjustable sights (fad), semi-auto 9mm pistols replacing revolvers for LE (not a fad) and .40 S&W (not a fan of .40 S&W, but I don't understand why he calls it a fad).
I have 2 types of red dots, Sig Zero on a G19 and it took about a case to get used to it. I don't have the years or miles that Hack has, so it took fewer rounds for me to relearn my hold. Then I got a Leupold Delta Point last spring for my G30S. The red dot sits right on top of my front sight, it's a closed emitter and that G30S is now my regular carry gun. This past weekend, I was able to go back and forth between the G30S and my Shield 9mm without any issues. My range will open up their steel targets again soon, so I'll be able to open up on both again and get that valuable training in. Last spring, I was able to do well with either the G19 or the G30S, switching from one to the other. I think Hack's message is: You need to train! Can't argue with that.
wild cat mccane
New member
They will only increase in popularity.
Demographics of gun owners and the natural degenerations of the human eye with age.
Demographically, also the group most likely to pay the prices that red dots are.
Demographics of gun owners and the natural degenerations of the human eye with age.
Demographically, also the group most likely to pay the prices that red dots are.
bamaranger
New member
Hackathorn
As a general rule, I am a fan of Hackathorn but once in a while he'll he'll toss out a comment that I think does not hold water. In this red dot episode he follows that pattern when he uses the demise in popularity of the .40 and the resurrection of the 9mm as supporting his argument against dots. I'll not elaborate, but watch the video....that's where he goes with it. Never mind the fact that the 9mm has regained popularity because the FBI has now returned to the 9mm and LE as a rule will follow suit.
But, I do not wish to hijack the thread......dots are here and I do believe they well be the way of the future. Throughout the history of firearms, sighting systems have improved along with the development of the guns themselves. Consider that scope sights were available in the mid-1800's. But as a kid in the mid 1960's, I still encountered shooters, mostly old timers, that did not trust scopes and did not want them on their rifles. Today, finally, a sporting rifle without some type of scope is a rarity. Sport handgunners brought the dot sight to the shooting world......now the military considers them standard issue on a variety of weapons. The dot on a handgun is just the natural progression of improving the sighting system of our guns.
I can see any dot, on any type of firearm, far better than any type of iron sight now due to old man eyes. I likely will set a handgun up with a dot to hunt whitetails, where shots will probably be longer than what a SD incident will occur. At present, none of my SD handguns wear dots.
As a general rule, I am a fan of Hackathorn but once in a while he'll he'll toss out a comment that I think does not hold water. In this red dot episode he follows that pattern when he uses the demise in popularity of the .40 and the resurrection of the 9mm as supporting his argument against dots. I'll not elaborate, but watch the video....that's where he goes with it. Never mind the fact that the 9mm has regained popularity because the FBI has now returned to the 9mm and LE as a rule will follow suit.
But, I do not wish to hijack the thread......dots are here and I do believe they well be the way of the future. Throughout the history of firearms, sighting systems have improved along with the development of the guns themselves. Consider that scope sights were available in the mid-1800's. But as a kid in the mid 1960's, I still encountered shooters, mostly old timers, that did not trust scopes and did not want them on their rifles. Today, finally, a sporting rifle without some type of scope is a rarity. Sport handgunners brought the dot sight to the shooting world......now the military considers them standard issue on a variety of weapons. The dot on a handgun is just the natural progression of improving the sighting system of our guns.
I can see any dot, on any type of firearm, far better than any type of iron sight now due to old man eyes. I likely will set a handgun up with a dot to hunt whitetails, where shots will probably be longer than what a SD incident will occur. At present, none of my SD handguns wear dots.